Interview between Speaker 1 (Meg Ferrell) and Speaker 2 (Vanessa Castaneda Gill)
Episode 113: AuDHDers, Executive Function, & Social-Emotional Wellbeing
[Introductory music]
Welcome to the Two Sides of the Spectrum podcast, a place where we explore research, amplify Autistic voices, and change the way we think about autism in life and in our professional therapy practices. I’m Meg Ferrell from learnplaythrive.com, broadcasting to you today from unceded Tsalagi territory.
Meg:
Buckle up y’all, because we are going on a journey. You may have heard our guest, Vanessa Castaneda Gill, on Episode 47 where we talked about social learning, game theory and Autistic girls. Today, Vanessa is back and we are diving into the specific needs of AuDHD-ers. That’s our Autistic kids who are also ADHD-ers. We go into executive function supports and tie this back into social-emotional wellbeing, and we even take a quick side conversation into LEGOs at the end of the episode.
I’ll tell you about Vanessa. She is the co-founder and CEO of Social Cipher, which creates these very cool social-emotional learning video games and curriculum for neurodivergent youth. Inspired by her own journey as an AuDHD individual, Vanessa assembled a neurodiverse team of mental health professionals, game developers, and educators to form Social Cipher. She and her team have worked in over 200 therapy centers and schools in eight countries, they’ve earned recognition as Forbes 30 Under 30 MIT Solvers, and most recently, LEGO Foundation Partners.
Really excited to share this conversation with you. And before we get into it, I wanna let you know that I am going to be in-person in Naperville, Illinois, giving a live continuing education training in April. It’s registered for AOTA and ASHA CEUs, as well as Illinois Early Intervention credits. You can get the details and grab your spot along with a discount for your group at learnplaythrive.com/chicago. Here is the interview with Vanessa Castaneda Gill.
Hi, Vanessa. Welcome back to the podcast.
Vanessa:
Thanks, Meg. I’m so excited to be here.
Meg:
Yeah, I’m excited to chat with you again, and your work has really evolved in the years since we last spoke. So, as we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, and the work you’re doing, and how it has evolved?
Vanessa:
Oh, my gosh, yes. It has been years and we’re all still here, which is really cool. So, I run an organization called Social Cipher. We build social-emotional learning video games, and curriculum, and progress reporting tools for neurodivergent youth ages 10-to-15 and the professionals who work with them. And that sentence used to be a lot shorter the first time that we talked. So, essentially, the way I started this company was because of my own experiences. So, I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD when I was 14. And this was the early 2010s so there was not as much representation and support as I think there is starting to grow now. We still need more, but it was, you know, much earlier before a much stronger neurodiversity movement that there is today.
And when I was diagnosed, for me, I just felt like I was othered or like I was broken. I was — we’ll talk about this later, I’m sure — but I was at this age where my identity was forming and I was like, oh, there are some ways that I am different from other kids and I can’t put my finger on why. And that is frustrating ‘cause then I can’t fix it; I can’t change it. And I hid my diagnoses for about six years up until the age of 21, because I just had this fear of being judged, or rejected, or treated differently because I was neurodivergent. And with the representation that was there at the time, a lot of the time it was, like, a white boy who was a savant, and was very cold and calculating, did everything all on their own, like, a solitary genius. And I was very much not that.
I was a little Latina kid that was just trying to do my best. And so, I felt pressure to fit into that mold and, of course, did not fit into that mold. And so, that led to a lot of mental health difficulties with anxiety, and depression, and just plummeting self-esteem. And it wasn’t until I became a neuroscience researcher — sadly, like, originally it was an attempt to fix my own brain and try to be, quote unquote, ‘normal’. But what ended up happening was that I fell in love with neuroscience. I realized that there were ways that I could contribute through my special interests to help people. And I also created, found community with people.
And through these newfound friends, I started experiencing and watching media, playing games where, yeah, like, the main character wasn’t Autistic, but there were a little pieces of different traits that different characters had that I found myself in and I formed my identity on. And that’s really how I came up with Social Cipher later. And I think since we’ve been on the show last time, we’ve really grown. I think, gosh, when we were with y’all the first time, it was like we had maybe, I don’t know, one or two little modules of gameplay and a couple of PDFs to help people along. And now, we’re a fully-fledged platform. We serve over 200 schools and therapy centers in eight countries now. So, we’ve really grown and it’s been a wild journey.
Meg:
Congratulations. That’s so exciting. I’m glad that your work is really getting out there. So, one of the shifts that you’ve made in your work is to really focus on the needs of AuDHD-ers, so folks who are Autistic and ADHDers. So, I’m curious, how did focusing on social-emotional learning, which was your starting point, lead to focusing on AuDHD? Like, what’s the tie in?
Vanessa:
Yeah. So, I think that there’s — we’ve had a lot more focus on a pretty vast range of different neurodivergent characters over the years. We’ve actually added one of our characters, Lyor, who is a selectively speaking engineer. Oh, also, these are space pirate video games that feature a neurodivergent protagonist. That’s another important point. Like, I’m talking about —
Meg:
Of course.
Vanessa:
And then, you know, the Space Captain, Redbraid, has ADHD. Like, we really wanted to bring in a diversity of neurodivergent perspectives and we’re very much not done yet because there are just, there are infinite ones we could bring in, right. But AuDHD was really important for us because, number one, like, our team is majority neurodivergent that works on these products. Aund we also have a very high amount of folks just specifically on our team who are also ADHD.
And I think it just — I’m sure folks in your audience, like, you all know a lot about autism, you know a lot about ADHD, right? But the combination with AuDHD is, I would say, relatively becoming a lot more understood over the last few years. So, I think in terms of what AuDHD is and how we kind of work with that in social-emotional learning is there’s huge focus for us on executive functioning skills ‘cause I think that’s where AuDHD tends to be very prevalent, right? So, being AuDHD is kind of like being a walking paradox, right? Like, there are times where you crave novelty. You want the dopamine; you want the new things happening. But at the same time you’re like, any change in what I have for breakfast is gonna be a problem.
So, you have this — or, you know, you’re in a crowd and you love the fact that you’re getting energy from all these different people, you’re meeting new folks. And then, you go home and you’re like, I am shutting everyone out for the next two days, there is nothing else I’m doing. And so, with executive functioning, that paradox really can be really strong because on the Autistic side, a lot of the time, you are like, “I have the details down. I have planned meticulously to do this task.” And then, the ADHD side is like, “Yeah, but I don’t wanna do it now.”
Like, this is just, you know, there is this perfectionism, this detail-orientedness of autism compared with the difficulties in task initiation and motivation that come with ADHD. And even being Autistic and ADHD, you can want so badly to start something, and there’s just this invisible force that’s making it really hard. So, for what we do, we actually released an executive functioning mini game, which has been by popular demand. I think folks were like we love your narrative video game series, which really dives deep into different social-emotional skills and is a very good proactive way to help kids understand social-emotional skills and prevent behavior challenges.
But I think that what folks also wanted was like, okay, what if in the moment I have, you know, I have a student or I have a client who is just not about it right now. They are just not motivated. They’re like, “What is the point?” which gets especially more prevalent when you get into the teen years, of like, “Why am I doing this?” And so, they wanted something that was more reactive, that you could do in a little bit of time, and that could hype kids up and help them really realize, like, why am I doing this, or what is the emotional barrier to me initiating a task.
So, our mini games include these different, like, we call them little challenge critters. So, they, these little monsters, each of them represent different barriers to task initiation. So, you’ll have something like the Slog Slug, which is ‘I know this thing is gonna take so long, it’s gonna be so boring’. And so, the Slog Slugs come in. Or you have the Task Tangler, which pretty self-explanatory, ‘I’m super overwhelmed and I don’t know where to start’. And our main character, Seb, who is a 13-year-old with ADHD, is fighting these different challenge critters. And what kids have to do is they use — it’s basically, if you’re familiar with a tower defense game, you’re defending Seb and his mental fortitude while all these different challenge critters and emotional barriers come over.
And then, what the player does as Seb is they build these different sort of towers that defend it. So, we have things like the Autopilot Pea Shooter, where it’s like, all right, start with the task that you don’t have to think too much to do that are really simple, really easy so you can gain some momentum. Or you’ll have something like the Step Slicer, which is breaking down those challenge critters into little smaller ones so they’re a little more bite-sized.
But that’s really how we do a lot of this work with AuDHD-ers is we give that novelty with the leveling up, the new challenge critters, the new towers; but we also give structure, like the layout of the games is very similar every time. And then, you have a lot of work on growth mindset. So, even if you’re — whether you’re in a win or a lose state, it’s never gonna be like ‘You lost’ or ‘You won’. It’s gonna be like, ‘Hey, you cleared this level’, or, ‘You made a wipe out and we’re gonna come up with some new ideas to cope’. And I think that’s really important.
Meg:
I feel like me and everyone listening is taking notes. Like, wait, so how do we start a task that feels hard to start? Something simple with momentum? Got it. The executive function demands of this world, no matter your neurotype, are already incredibly hard. And I know the research shows that the folks who struggled the most are AuDHD-ers with executive function, the compounding impacts there. What sort of supports and skills have you found that AuDHD in particular benefit from?
Vanessa:
Definitely. So, going back to the executive functioning, what I think from personal experience and from working with a lot of other AuDHDers, one of the huge byproducts of the perfectionism with the autism and the task initiation challenges with ADHD is shame, right? There is so much, “I could do this yesterday. Why can’t I do this today?” Or, “How am I so organized, how am I so meticulous, how do I make all these lists, and I still forget, like, my homework assignment, or I still forget to bring this thing with me?” And it’s like the other thing that compounds along with this is, yeah, the shame, the lack of self-compassion.
So, I think that with AuDHD-ers, that’s one of the most important things you can work on is the executive functioning skills, but also, like, “Hey, we can grow from this,” or, “Hey, maybe yesterday you were having more of an ADHD day. So, yeah, maybe you were more social yesterday and you could handle a lot more of the sensory input. But today, hey, it’s an autism day. It’s recharge time. Let’s get your safe outfit, let’s get your comfort foods and your comfort TV show on,” and that’s what we’re doing, right? And so, I think it’s like deconstructing that shame and building more that self-compassion for these kids, and helping them understand that sometimes being Autistic and ADHD, like, it’s never gonna be a split, predictable 50/50 day of, like, oh, from four-to-five I’m Autistic, and from eight-to-nine, I’m ADHD.
Like, it is every day, it’s going to be a different balance. And so, I think it’s really important for parents for counselors to really help kids understand and identify what are the indicators in my body, or in how I’m feeling, or in how I’m reacting to things that make it maybe more of an ADHD day. And what supports are gonna match that? Am I gonna need something new and exciting to do? Am I gonna need a little treat to motivate me that day? Or is it gonna be more of an autism day where I need the lights low, I need to be a little more lowkey about it, and I want a predictable routine to get through stuff. And so, helping kids understand those supports and what’s gonna help them regulate will really also give them a reason of like, “Oh, I’m feeling this way ’cause I’m feeling more of an ADHD or autism day.”
Meg:
So interesting. I love the blending of the deep wellbeing, the shame, resilience, the ‘You’re already okay, you’re already good enough. Your needs matter. Your needs are okay’ with the skill building of executive function. I feel like so often we’re having to choose one or the other, and I love your both-and. Vanessa, another area where you’ve been focusing is the social-emotional challenges faced by neurodivergent adolescents in the 10-to-19-year-old range. My oldest kid turns nine tomorrow as of the day we are recording, and it’s honestly been surprising to me to watch how things change for my friends’ kids of all neurotypes as they near 10. It’s very, very different set of challenges and needs in this tween sort of age, pre-adolescent and then adolescent. Can you talk a little bit about this age range?
Vanessa:
Definitely. Yeah. And happy birthday to your oldest. Yay!
Meg:
Thanks.
Vanessa:
Yeah. So, I’m coming back from a wedding where my niece just cut her own curtain bangs at a sleepover and that, I feel like that explains like the preteen era really well.
Meg:
Guilty. I did it too.
Vanessa:
Yeah. It was a week before her parents’ wedding though, which made it even funnier. It looked good. It looked good.
Meg:
Amazing.
Vanessa:
But I feel like that actually pushes well into what I wanna talk about, which is those ages 10-to-19, so much of it is, for all adolescents regardless of neurotype, that is like identity formation time. Kids are trying things out. They are very, very heavily influenced by their peers. And I think the gap and knowing this, the self and social consciousness of, “Oh, I know something’s different,” or I know that there, if there is a gap that exists, like, something is widening between me and my peers. Like, it becomes really prevalent. And I think for me, at that point, like, realizing that I had special interests or experiences where, you know, I was trying to learn social interactions as a second language, most kids were not doing that, and like studying on YouTube and in books every single day on how to talk to friends.
So, I think that’s one big area. And that’s another place where things like shame can come in, being really conscious of others and how they compare. And then, for neurodivergent kids especially, like, it’s a continued sentence of I know there’s a gap widening, I know there’s something different, but I cannot put my finger on what. And I really, really don’t know. ‘Cause we’re all, we all kinda look the same, we all play the same, we’re doing the same stuff in school, but something’s up. And so, that can create a lot of frustration. And this is also where, like, in terms of academics and kids’ confidence, things can be really difficult too for neurodivergent kids, especially like AuDHD kids who, getting those executive functioning difficulties that maybe they haven’t encountered before, the shame is building. They’re thinking about their assignments all the time, but somehow they’re not getting it or they’re incomplete for some reason.
And then, at the same time, kids are getting into middle and high school where classes are, there are a lot more classes, there’s more subjects to manage, there’s extracurriculars that are going on. So, there’s just a lot more potential for overwhelm, for things slipping through the cracks. And then, I think the main thing, too, is the more nuanced interactions, right? Like, there are so many other ways of teasing or bullying that neurodivergent kids might miss.
For example, I remember vividly that I was in line for class registration in my freshman year of high school. And I remember that there was one girl that I thought was my friend and she had made a comment about my outfit and was like, “Nice outfit.” And I was like, “Thanks!” And I turned around to my mom and I was like, “That’s my friend.” She was like, “Did you know that she was being sarcastic with you? I don’t wanna hurt your feelings, but we need to work on this stuff.” And it was things like that where there were certain elements of bullying that would just go over my head because while other kids might be starting to understand these social nuances, there were places where that was just a blank for me and it wasn’t there.
Meg:
Thank you for sharing that. What kinds of supports have you found are useful for kids in this age range, or skills, or information, or whatever it might be?
Vanessa:
Yeah. I think that understanding kind of the track that your kid might be on is really important. So, we did actually a lot of work — we’ve done a lot of work with our games. And all our games focus on anything from trust, to coping with change, and understanding different needs to, like, our new executive functioning stuff. And we have found kind of three types of tracks that kids might be going down in terms of — especially when they’re neurodivergent. So, we have found one type, which I very much was, which is the kid that is like a total perfectionist at school, masking to the max, and getting good grades, really flies under the radar in terms of diagnosis. But when they get home, like, mask is off. They are overwhelmed, they’re dysregulated, because they finally feel safe at home. That’s the only place they can really do it. So, that’s one.
There’s also the type where kids who, I think, the underlying thing is that all these kids fear failure and rejection, and it becomes that much more scary when you get into these later years. And so, the second one is kids can fall into apathy, right? Like, kids can just be like, “Well, if I’m gonna fail, then whatever. I guess it’s not a big deal,” even though it’s the biggest deal in their brain. And so, you can have kind of that approach of, “Well, if I’m gonna fail at it, I’m just not gonna try.”
And then, there’s also a third piece where it’s like there are kids that are earnestly, like, they are trying every day, but maybe just distraction continues to get in the way. And just different things are just in their path. And so, they’re just constantly trying to build resilience and just pushing the rock up that hill, and it is tiring even though they’re just earnestly just trying to go on. So, I think understanding a little bit more, even if it’s a little scary, of what path they’re kind of on and helping them find supports for that is really important.
I think so much of it really does come back to like their coping strategies, executive functioning skills, and helping them have compassion for themselves. And just also, I think, overall, because they’re forming their values, they’re forming their identity right now, helping them really reinforce who they are. If they have certain interests, making sure that, hey, this is something that’s serving a purpose for you. It’s something that you’re passionate about. Like, let’s encourage that. Even if maybe kids at school think it’s weird or something, let’s find a way for you to find your people that are also interested in this so that you have that purpose and you have that connection.
Meg:
I love that. I love the idea that passions and purpose are protective ’cause they really can be. On that note, you and I have something in common — it’s LEGO focused interventions. So, when I was a newer OT in the schools, the structured LEGO afterschool social group and the one that I did was based on the research of a man named Dr. LeGoff, L-E-G-O-F-F, which was hilarious that his career focus was LEGO. But this was with Autistic middle schoolers and it was so much fun. The kids loved it; it was one of my favorite things I did.
So, it was the kind of thing where they had these structured roles where one kid was the parts supplier, and the other was the engineer, and the other was the builder, and they worked on teams and they built this cool stuff, and the relationships really flourished. It was an entirely Autistic group of kids, so it was a really good space for authentic engagement and connection around a shared interest. And when you and I were touching base about the podcast interview, one of the things that you said you had been doing in your work was something around LEGO as well. Can you talk about your experience with that and what you’ve discovered?
Vanessa:
Yeah. That is so cool, and I love the idea of those roles. ‘Cause, yeah, it gives that purpose, it gives them, like, a little LEGO piece and a thing that they can be responsible for. I’m not surprised how well that worked out and how fun it must have been. And yeah, for us, in terms of LEGO, we have actually been long-term partners with the LEGO Foundation for a couple years now through their Play for All initiative, which is all about increasing access and learning through play for neurodivergent young people.
So, what we did with them, especially in the first year of our partnership, was first of all really cool. We went to the LEGO HQ in Denmark and spent like 12-hours a day every day in their giant LEGO conference room, which is a literal giant LEGO, like, yellow LEGO block that you just sit inside. It’s really fun. And we were in there, like, 12-hours a day learning about all of their research and principles of learning through play. I think the foundation, yes, the blocks are excellent. There is so much involved in them and a lot of the time you don’t realize how much incredible research they have done in this realm on how kids play of all ages.
And so, one thing that really stuck and was a huge part of our partnership was like, how do we incorporate all of the principles of LEGO foundations learning through play in our product? So, they usually have five principles of what makes learning through play meaningful and something that’s really impactful. So, those are joyful, meaningful, actively engaging, iterative, and socially interactive. Those are the things that really make it effective. And so, for us, we came in having quite a few of those different things, right? Like, we’re role-playing games, and we have all these different characters, and this way for kids to like platform around to try out different dialogue choices and practice social interactions in a safe and accessible space.
So, we have a lot of things that contribute to the joyful, the meaningful, the iterative, and socially interactive. But I think there were places that we were missing with the actively engaging and with more of the creativity part of stuff. Because, yeah, kids can choose their own interactions, they can choose the way that they platform through worlds. But for us, what we were missing was like, yeah, we wanted more ways for kids to iterate and more ways for them to actively engage with the content and have agency. That was another huge thing.
So, with the LEGO Foundation, we built — the names will be really obvious — we built our World Builder and our Character Creator. And so, this did a lot for us. Like, we worked with LEGO to build something that would allow kids to bring the things from our games universe into their own creative expression and their own worlds. So, for example, with our World Builder, kids are — it’s very much like a 2D Minecraft in a space pirate world, right? So, kids in our world builder are able to, yeah, what the name says, build their own worlds. They’re also, with our identity and self-awareness curriculum, they’re also able to do social emotional learning through building.
So, within our World Builder, kids are prompted to build their safe space or to build a city that represents their different passions and interests, and they can do all of that. Or with our Character Creator, right? Number one, kids are able to see themselves in our game series universe, which is really important. But number two, like, all of our characters, they’re prompted to create a backstory for themselves. Like, what’s their motivation? What are the things that are, you know, in their way?
And then, we also encourage them like, hey, build your own space pirate crew. Like, what are — what is the ideal team of people that you have around you, or aliens that you have around you? And what traits do they have? And how do those traits relate to the team you have in real life? Or what could you be looking for in more of your friends, in the traits that you need and want in people? So, the LEGO Foundation really helped us unlock more of those creative elements of learning through play and really helping kids iterate, helping them actively engage, and have a lot more agency in their experiences.
Meg:
Very cool. That’s very cool. I love the tie in, too, to what we just talked about with the 10-and-up age range where kids are building their identity. And you’re helping them really proactively and intentionally think about what that is. Who am I? What brings me joy? Who do I want around me? How does it feel when they’re around me? And I feel like often the opportunity to think through that is missed. So, that’s so cool and you do it in such an engaging and interesting way. Before we wrap up, is there anything you wanna add or bring us back to?
Vanessa:
I think we’ve covered most things well. I think it’s just, like, to anyone who is or is working with AuDHD is out there, especially I think neurodivergence in general, is just a lifelong journey, and a beautiful one at that. But I think especially being AuDHD, like, it’s really important to realize that many days you can feel like a walking paradox and be like, “What is going on? And why can’t I just be one or the other?” I don’t think I touched on the fact that there are also so many really interesting and cool, like, pros to being Autistic and ADHD, as well as unique challenges. But I think that understanding and taking it day-by-day to understand how the different things going on in your brain can work together is one of the most important things that you can do as well.
Meg:
Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning that there’s strengths, there’s pros to that, as some of my — a lot of my favorite children and adults are AuDHD-ers, and there has to be a reason. There’s just this level for the folks that I’m thinking of, of passion, and engagement, and it’s very, very interesting.
Vanessa:
Yeah.
Meg:
There’s like a lot of energy there.
Vanessa:
There’s so much. I think I saw someone write on LinkedIn the other day, they were like, “AuDHD is also when like your thoughts have thoughts, on top of it.” Like, I think part of it is — I think, one big strength for example is I’m able to be super meticulous with details and see the smallest of things, but I’m also able to look at stuff in the big picture, and I’m able to do it at the same time and catch stuff that folks miss. Or, you know, I think another pro is that many AuDHD-ers have tried literally all the things. Like, every productivity hack, every way to interact, because we have this kind of boundless energy and need for novelty that comes with ADHD, but also we have a radar of, like, ‘Nope, this isn’t right. No, this also isn’t right’ that comes with being Autistic. So, I think we also tend to — many of us tend to be treasure troves of hacks and different things that you can attempt and do.
Meg:
Yeah, I was thinking about my friend’s recently diagnosed AuDHD 10-year-old who can learn really complex board games really quickly, and I love board games. And he has shown me like nine different ways that I was not playing games right, that I had misunderstood the nuance of some rule. But I love that. It’s so useful, and he can just get it so much faster than me and then teach it to me. And he’s also really fun to play with.
Vanessa:
Yeah, it really is.
Meg:
Yeah. Thank you so much. Where can people find you and your work online, Vanessa?
Vanessa:
Yeah. So, if you’re interested in looking at our free resource library, we also have free lesson plans, curriculum, all that good stuff. You can find us at socialcipher.com, and that’s ‘Cipher’ with an ‘I’. And if you actually wanna play our games and look at our counselor curriculum, you can also create a free account at that same website, socialcipher.com.
Meg:
I am definitely gonna check it out and I hope other people do too. Thank you so much, and congratulations on how much everything that you have done has continued to grow.
Vanessa:
Thanks so much, Meg. It was so great to be here again.
Meg:
It was a pleasure.
[Ending note]
Thanks for listening to the Two Sides of the Spectrum podcast. Get even more episodes by visiting patreon.com/learnplaythrive. Supporting us on Patreon helps keep the podcast going. You can also find show notes and a transcript of this episode learnplaythrive.com/podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend and on your social media. Thanks for being here.