Interview between Speaker 1 (Meg) and Speaker 2 (Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez)
Episode 76: Let’s Talk About Autistic Sex
[Introductory music]
Welcome to the Two Sides of the Spectrum Podcast. A place where we explore research, amplify Autistic voices, and change the way we think about autism in life, and in our professional therapy practices. I’m Meg Proctor from learnplaythrive.com.
Meg:
Before we get started, a quick note on language. On this podcast, you’ll hear me and many of my guests use identity-affirming language. That means we say ‘Autistic person’ rather than ‘person with autism’. What we’re hearing from the majority of Autistic adults is that autism is a part of their identity that they don’t need to be separated from. Autism is not a disease, it’s a different way of thinking and learning. Join me in embracing the word ‘Autistic’ to help reduce the stigma.
Welcome to Episode 76 with one of our favorite returning podcast guests, Autistic occupational therapist Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez. This is a repeat of Episode 46 of the podcast, and we’re repeating in part because we’re so excited that Sarah’s continuing education course, ‘Ethics & Neurodiversity: Let’s Talk About Sex’, is now registered for CEU’s for social workers! It’s registered for 1 credit hour of Ethics with ASWB. And like all of our courses, it’s also registered for OT’s with AOTA, and for SLP’s with ASHA. Today’s episode is all about sex, and it’s such an important conversation for any of us working with Autistic people. In this interview, Sarah helps me answer questions like, “What should we be teaching Autistic kids about sex?” and, “Whose job is it to have these conversations?” Spoiler — it’s all of ours. I also ask her how we can help our Autistic clients develop positive and authentic identity around sex and sexuality, how trauma and sensory processing differences relate to the sexual experiences of Autistic people, and how we — I’m talking to you here, OT’s, SLP’s, social workers — can help our Autistic clients reduce their risk of sexual assault. This is a topic for every single therapist, and teacher, and other professional working with Autistic kids. Teaching about sex and doing risk reduction around sexual assault is all of our jobs.
I’ll tell you a little bit about Sarah. Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez blogs as The Autistic OT. She writes about Autistic culture, occupational justice, and identity development for Autistic people. Sarah has taught extensively about autism and sensory processing. She’s a co-instructor in several Learn, Play, Thrive courses on Autistic strengths and positive Autistic identity. And like I mentioned before, she teachers her own course on ethics and sex. So, this is Sarah’s fourth episode on the podcast, fifth if you count the repeat here today, and I am so excited to share this interview with you.
Hey, Sarah! Welcome back to the podcast.
Sarah:
Hey, Meg! I’m so happy to be back. This is one of my favorite places to be.
Meg:
I love any moment that I can sit and chat with you. And this episode is exciting because it sort of takes us back to our roots and the moment that you and I conceptualized this podcast, which was in the Neurodiversity in the New Year Summit back in 2020. And we were talking about hand-over-hand and how our Autistic clients have the right to bodily autonomy, and you tied this into consent, and sexual assault. And our conversation pivoted to police officers in schools physically handling and assaulting Black Autistic children. It went to the school-to-prison pipeline and then I just blurted out, “Can we please have a podcast?” And there was this long stream of applause in the comments because we were doing a live talk. And so, we did. It developed into this and I’m really excited to circle back to this topic about sex, sexual assault, consent, bodily autonomy, and really dive into that with you.
Sarah:
Well, I cannot be more pleased. And, you know, when I realized that this was two years ago, and before COVID, before the lock — like, just really reflecting on how much has changed and how much more needs to change. So, I’m glad to be here today.
Meg:
Yeah, there’s plenty of work to do. And it’s exciting to see the people out there doing it increasingly. So, let’s start with why this matters. Why are you excited to talk about sex and disability?
Sarah:
Okay. So, one of the reasons why I love to talk about sex and disability, which just as an aside, it’s pretty hysterical because I actually identify as an asexual person. And so, for me to show up and talk about sex, it cracks me up. But it’s really important. And the reason why I feel like it is so important goes, it’s specifically important for sex, because we’re all — we’re human beings, we have sexual needs, we have rights to autonomy, et cetera, et cetera. But when you pull back, it’s so much bigger. About consent, we have a right to consent to our bodies being touched, period. We have a right to say, hey, the way things are structured, the way this is happening is great for my body, or not great for my body. It’s important that people understand.
And this is one of my favorite little quotes from Kate Jones, who works with me often, she made this beautiful graphic of all the things that you should hear in an inclusive community. And one of the things is, “You can change your mind as many times as you want to.” And do I believe that? Yes, I do. I believe that you have choice. You can change your mind as many times as you want to. And what I’ve noticed in the world, especially with the intersections of disability and sex, is that it’s almost like people feel as though just disabled people don’t even have a choice. So, we’re not even like, you know — and not only do we have a choice, we get to change our mind. And so, really shifting that narrative is important, and tying it explicitly to consent.
Meg:
Yeah, and I think we think that so easily about children too. We don’t give them a choice, the opportunity, to consent, to not consent. And it’s grooming them to be children who believe they don’t have the right to consent or dissent, and adults in the same position.
Sarah:
For sure. Like, actually, I have a wonderful student right now. And we were talking just an hour ago about goals. And they mentioned a goal about compliance. And we talk about this a lot when we talk. Like, I love Rachel’s work with strengths-based goals, this than the other, and we need to have those conversations. They’re really important. And we also need to have the conversation of the point at when we create goals, and when we create a therapy system that reinforces compliance, we are reinforcing ableist racist systems that are harmful. And so, yeah, that’s — I just want to — yes, we’re on the same page.
Meg:
Yeah, absolutely. And just in case anybody’s new, you mentioned Rachel’s work on strengths-based goals. That’s Rachel Dorsey who has a course on strengths-based goal writing. I soapbox on hand-over-hand, or like a therapist is moving a child’s body for them, and consent all the time. And I often get these emails that are like, “What’s the evidence for hand-over-hand violating a child’s consent?” And they’re sort of hard to respond to, right? Because this isn’t a question of evidence-based practice, it’s a question of ethics, and the right to autonomy is written into our OT code of ethics. And it just really highlights like, why do we think we have — that the burden of proof falls on showing that it’s not evidence-based, as opposed to starting from an ethical position of respecting the child’s bodily autonomy?
Sarah:
So, this is hysterical because literally — you don’t know this — but I literally have the AOTA code of ethics, core values, like I have that pulled up, because that’s literally part of the conversation that I want to have today, is that this is an ethical concern. And one of the things that we are duty bound to do is to always be critically reflecting and analyzing and looking at ourselves and the way that we are providing support to the people that we serve, right. And when I hear from people and they say to me, “Well, what’s the evidence?” My immediate response is, as a therapist, what has happened to you? Like, now I’m not — like, the child isn’t — to me, I feel like the child may be in some type of danger. Because you, the therapist, have been groomed yourself for compliance to the point that you believe that somebody’s autonomy is worth less than your goals. Oh, my God, what happened to you?
Meg:
I love that question.
Sarah:
Who told you that? Who told you that?
Meg:
I love that question, Sarah. Okay, I want to circle back around to the basics. And we’ll work our way back here. So, there’s OTs and SLPs, and other professionals listening, and we’re going to tie this explicitly into SLP practice as well. But for OTs, can you help me situate sex within our practice framework so that we’re all on the same page from the beginning about why we should be talking to our clients about sex? Let’s start there.
Sarah:
Yes, I will start there. And I want to first say, number one, thank you to JJ Soros of OT After Dark. And OT After Dark, JJ has a partner that that she works with. Their work is phenomenal, one. Two, they connected me with some phenomenal work from Beth Ann Walker from the University of Indiana, who actually created — it’s like, 2020, Beth Ann Walker comes out with the OT, Occupational Therapy Sexual Assessment Framework in 2020. So, the great news is that this is actually all written out for OTs specifically, and it’s free. It’s freely accessible, it’s not behind a paywall, it’s not in a database. And what Walker has really laid out for us is that number one, sex is actually an ADL. Like, it’s an actual factual thing that we should be addressing as part of the things that people need and want to do every single day. Because guess what? They’re actually people who need or want to do that every single day.
And my giggle is, again, there’s my implicit bias. Like, just to be — and I’m not going to be hard on myself. But just to note it. Be like, okay, social participation, under that we have listed intimate partner relationships. And what I really liked about Beth Ann Walker, the constructs that are included in their model, it really breaks it down to, for example, a client factor that we could work on. Sexual knowledge, sexual self-view, body functions. So, sexual interests, sexual response, falls under body functions. Body structures are a part of sex. Performance, skill and patterns. That is something that also falls under the range of the conversations with sex, and IADL, right? ADL is sex, sexual activity. IADL, family planning, sexual expression. Social participation includes intimacy, health management, which we talk about in the framework, includes sexual health. So, that is like a fly by because there’s actually so many opportunities that we have to support our clients around sex.
Meg:
Absolutely. That’s just really explicit. So, I think we should all be listening, because this starts no matter how young our clients are, there’s something related to learning about sex, learning about consent that we can and should be doing, and is our jobs. And thinking about SLPs, I would certainly encourage SLPs listening to look at their own practice framework and do that same analysis. Social participation, social communication, language; there’s so many obvious starting points there as well which actually ties in really nicely to a question I want to ask you about a recent presentation you did with JJ Soros from the podcast, OT After Dark, and Romina Lynn Reyes, who is also Autistic, talking about neurodivergence and sex. And one of the things that came up was the lack of good sexual education for Autistic people. So, here’s where I think, okay, this is — this is in everybody’s scope. This is all of our responsibility, right. We’re talking about language, we’re talking about — we’re speaking to everyone listening, parents, therapists of all types. Can you talk about what sexual education for Autistic people should include and why it matters?
Sarah:
Absolutely. Sexual education. Like, number one, again, because I’m addressing my implicit bias, one of the things that I really get focus on is sex ed, because it’s so critically important. And if you live in the United States, it’s actually a part of like, common core, like all the things that we’re supposed to hit, and that starts in preschool. So, what you said is absolutely correct. Across the lifespan, it’s important to know that you’re always working and you’re always in a space that should be educating in a positive way about sex. And one thing that I want to say that not a lot of people know about this, but one of my favorite movies ever is a movie called Keep the Change. Keep the Change, and it is on — I believe it’s free now, so watch if you have Amazon Prime. But I’m not sure about the director, but I know that all the actors in it are actually Autistic. It’s been out for a couple years, and it’s specifically about dating, and sex, and sexual relationships, and what that looks like between actually Autistic people. And it is one of my favorite movies.
And I’m like, astounded we don’t talk about it more, because it’s actually a really great representation of Autistic sex. So, number one, knowing that there’s ways that people — we really do like to have sex, and it might be a little different. And number one, that’s okay, because we’re allowed to our own experience. So, if I take that, and I acknowledge that number one, Autistic people, we need things really explicitly. We also need people to not assume that we know anything, because we might not. In OT world we talk about like, rehabilitation often when we’re working with adults. You actually might be supporting somebody with habilitation, like actually developing this education around themselves. And so, I actually, like, I have it here in front of me, and I’m gonna pull up what should be included in positive sex education. Positive sex education, according to McLaughlin — and I will give you all these links, I know you like the links, Meg.
Meg:
Yes. So, there’ll be in the show notes, everybody listening.
Sarah:
Yes. So, a 2018 study says, “Good sex education should address gender identity and expression, body parts, caring for your body, different types of relationships, communication, dating, Internet, social media, being in relationships, sexual feelings, attractions, what are sexual acts.” This is a big one, “Sex ed should be focused on educating people that they have a right to pleasure. Making decisions about sex, the challenges of sex, family planning, STD, STI information,” and of course, as we always talk about, consent. And so, I, so where I cue in, specifically for the Autistic population, is the idea that sex can be, and should be, and could be pleasurable because of sensory issues. And well, I know we’re going to be talking about masking a little bit later, and things like this. But from an early age, we should be told, everybody should be told, that actually, sex is supposed to feel good. And be something that you enjoy. And that’s actually a radical thing. To say, “Hey, 14-year-old, hey, eight-year-old, your body — like, the way that your body is, and the things that your body wants, that’s real, and you should feel good.” And let me give you, you know, like, of course, time, space, place, hygiene, yada, yada. But, yeah, I mean, it’s supposed to be good.
Meg:
That is so important. And I appreciate how explicitly you put that on the table, that we might assume people know that, and that’s a really important thing to know. And without that information, it could take a lifetime to get on track, and a lot of really bad experiences. So, I hear you saying, yeah.
Sarah:
Can I tell you a funny story?
Meg:
Yes, please.
Sarah:
So, my town is so famous for so many reasons. And one of the things that they recently are famous for is that an Eighth-grade teacher accidentally — like, it was actually an accident, set out an assignment that had, it was like, okay, sex is like pizza, and you get to pick your toppings. Like, what do you like? What do you want on there, right? People lost their actual minds. And I’m like, back here saying why? That’s awesome. What a great assignment. But we had people show up from all over the state to eventually — and they kind of cheeky. It made me chuckle, but they brought pizza to the board of education meetings. But they were actually upset because they felt like that was not within — like, you shouldn’t be having those kinds of conversations, blah, blah. And I’m like, no, no, no. Wow, this is great. Yeah, we were on Fox News, because apparently this was so international news. The idea that somebody could ask an Eighth grader, well, what do you like? What would you want on your pizza?
Meg:
What’s your town, Sarah? Where do you live?
Sarah:
Enfield, Connecticut. E-N-F-I-E-L-D, Connecticut.
Meg:
We’re naming it. I mean, we’re filming this during the ‘Don’t Say Gay’ legislation, right. I think it’s important to name, for therapists, teachers out there who are going, “Yes, this is so important,” our cultural views on not talking about sex, and sexual preferences, and orientation, and gender identity, and pleasure are so backwards. And there’s these real barriers that we have to fight against for the health and safety and like fundamental well-being of kids and adolescents. Okay, so one of the things you named is that we need to have language around our bodies and sex. Initially, just our bodies, what are our body parts called, right? If young kids can’t name their body parts, they can’t report on things that are happening in their life, if there is a sexual assault for a young child. At an age that they’re ready, they start learning about sex, what it is what it should and shouldn’t look like; these are things we do to reduce the risk of sexual assault for our disabled clients. And the risk of sexual assault is very high. Do you know the — the rates I know are all over the place, but do you have numbers?
Sarah:
I actually put down that I can’t figure out the statistics, because I was actually looking at like, what are the rates for sexual assault? And I’m like, well, I don’t — I have so many risks. Like, I’m a woman, I’m queer, I’m disabled. Like, I don’t know, when I consider all of those things together, what my actual risk is for assault. It’s really high.
Meg:
But they’re high. The risk for disabled people is much higher than —
Sarah:
Currently, the number I know is eight. Eight times higher, eight times more likely.
Meg:
That’s what I heard too. And that might even be an underestimate, because of under reporting, probably. So, we’re going to circle back to sexual assault in a minute. But before we go there, I want to linger on the other piece of what you said for a minute, which is that clients need to know about themselves, how they identify, what they like, what they find pleasurable, what they’re interested in. What do you see as the role of professionals in facilitating that process?
Sarah:
So, specifically to the Autistic community, what professionals need to understand about us is that cis-hetero is not the norm in the Autistic population. There has been some amazing research that’s come out by — and again, I actually don’t have the name of the author. But when it was just like a little tidbit that I pulled out, it was a study about sensory barriers to healthcare. And in the demographic information, they included like, you know, people who are assigned female at birth, how they identified. And here’s the actual thing. Over 50% of Autistic people who are assigned female at birth identified as being non-binary. Over 50%.
Meg:
That is an important statistic to know.
Sarah:
That’s huge. Okay, so that was one study, a small yada, yada. Chris Bonello, of Autistic Not Weird, every year does an amazing survey. And in Chris Bonello’s survey — so, it was like almost 7,500 Autistic respondents — of that, 18.7% identified as being trans, which is important because only 0.6% of the US population identifies as being trans. So, 18% identify as trans, over 18. US population is only 0.6%. And our, yeah, and the other really amazing thing was that of the respondents, 55% identified as queer in some way. And in the US, it’s actually 4.5%. So, it’s really important that professionals know that if you’re teaching or supporting or providing materials, you need to be providing materials for queer people, trans people, non-binary because that is the Autistic population. And so, if the support that you give is only toward a cis-hetero typical relationship, typical sexual experience, you are actually not meeting the majority need of the Autistic population right at baseline. You’re not providing evidence-based care.
Meg:
Wow. So, we do have an episode with Lyric Holmans in Episode 22 on gender identity and sexual orientation that people can go back and listen to, to dive in a little deeper into that topic as well. Are there concrete things — I mean, it seems like at baseline, we should be talking about gender identity and pronouns and respecting those. What else?
Sarah:
I think, again, to me, it goes back to my guiding statement from Kate Jones about you can change your mind as many times as you want to. And the reality is that our Western society comes in believing that we need to be groomed, shaped, and guided toward this one idea. And what’s happening in an explosive way across many different populations, but especially in the Autistic community is that adults are realizing this actually isn’t me, and I actually did have a choice all along. I was lied to. I was lied to by — and this is like, it’s hard work. Like saying, “Wow, my parents lied to me. My teachers lied to me. Maybe they didn’t know any better. But the reality is, they still lied to me. And that negatively impacted the way that I understand myself. And so, now I’ve got to do extra work that I really didn’t have to do, I shouldn’t have had to do.” And this is specifically a Western problem, because it’s speaking — no, excuse me, a European problem. Because the indigenous cultures to the United States did not have the same views of children.
They actually thought that people were born in knowing who they were and what they wanted to do and how they wanted to be, and respected that from the first breath. And that’s why our culture — dominant, Eurocentric culture — targeted them and sent them to residential schools, because we were like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Letting someone be authentic? No, no, no, no. We can’t do that.” I could go on and on and on. However, I just want people to understand that we are doing a lot of work to undo the damage that was done to us. And the reason that we talk about it so much is that it literally doesn’t have to happen. And so, when people are OT’s, PT’s, like, you know, et cetera, et cetera, you have to be really clear, and almost aggressively healing with yourself to make sure that you aren’t perpetuating cycles of harm, especially European cycles of harm, which have had a devastating impact on people of color.
Meg:
I love that phrase, aggressively healing. I think we can really hold that. And I hear you saying we need to make space to learn from and about our clients in regards to gender identity, to sexual orientation, to sex, to who they are, to what they need, to what they like, to what they want, to what they’re good at; that we need to spend a lot more time respecting that they know themselves, and making space for that, and learning from and about them. And I do want to talk about trauma. We know from Autistic adults like you that just living in the world as an Autistic person can be deeply traumatizing, both generally through living in a world that is just not set up to meet your needs, and specifically through traumatizing events, therapies, experiences, relationships. Can you tie in trauma to the sexual experience of Autistic people?
Sarah:
Sure. So, my specific interest, what I love to talk about and what’s actually given me a lot of grounding when I think about like, you know, when I have to do some difficult personal work, actually, to be able to provide these supports, is sensory. Sensory processing, sensory processing. And so, I think about the fact that like, okay, I honestly believe and I know part of the literature, neuroscience literature, that sustaining chronic dysregulation leads to adverse negative health outcomes, which includes anxiety, depression, autoimmune, gastrointestinal, and so on and so forth, right. And when we have to endure chronic dysregulation, because we’re told that like, we literally have to, to our sensory systems, including in sex, it is actually harmful. It actually causes trauma. And so, the reality is, again, that trauma never needs to happen if we empower people, number one, to know their sensory profile and know what their thresholds are for their bodies — “I have a high threshold here, I have a low threshold here” — if we understand how to set up the environment, to support our success at a sensory level, we can then take this act and use it for what it should be. And whatever that should be is actually defined by the person. Some people use it for intimacy, some people use it to calm down. Some people use it to wake up. I mean, there’s a lot of different reasons why people use sex. And so, making sure that they know their bodies and their thresholds and how to really own that about themselves is just paramount. Because when you don’t, it contributes to trauma. And we have to stop. Like, we just, we don’t need to do this anymore. That’s my Autistic self, right now. I’m like, where I feel like I’m standing in a rainstorm of trauma, but it’s like, actually, somebody’s holding the hose that’s spraying the water on me. And I’m like, we actually don’t need to do this anymore. Put it down, and let’s move out of this absolute storm.
Meg:
I love that. And it’s such a nice tie in to everything we’ve talked about with the starting with knowing yourself, understanding yourself, and understanding that this is supposed to be consensual and pleasurable. And anything else that’s happening needs to stop. I love how that builds. There’s another barrier we haven’t talked about yet in this conversation today. We’ve talked about it a lot on the podcast, and that’s masking. So, teaching Autistic people to hide their authentic selves in order to present as neurotypical. How does the practice of masking play out in sex?
Sarah:
So, masking and sex. And first, I want to say thank you so much to Romina Lynn Reyes for specifically researching this part of the presentation that we did together with JJ Soros on neurodivergent sex and sensory processing. And so, I will tell you specifically what Romina found in the literature. Again, the study of Miller et al. from 2021. But the reality is this masking can be mentally and physically exhausting for Autistic adults. Autistic adults have been found to feel quite anxious, stressed, and not their true selves. This leads to greater risk for depression and other mental health risks, including suicidality, which was one of the top killers of Autistic people. This sense of disconnection is also detrimental, because people will have to keep track of what their identities are that they’ve masked to other people.
It is so — it just depletes us, that the actual act of having sex or being intimate should be pleasurable. And when you have to mask those traits, it literally still contributes to the chronic dysregulation that you feel. Now, I want to say though, because I’m Autistic, there are some ways that masking can be fun, meaning that it’s consensual. So, we talk about things like role play, we could talk about things like physical masking, if we’re talking about like, you know, not wanting to have your face seen, like you’re worried about your facial expressions or whatever like that. I talk often with people about masking in a way like putting on gloves because of sensory issues. So, masking in your identity and who you are can be detrimental. But the literal interpretation of masking actually can be great for sex. So, we definitely also need to talk about that too.
Meg:
I love that. I love that distinction. Okay, I do want to circle back around like we said we would to sexual assault because we know these rates are very high. What can we do in our sessions to address the culture of sexual assaults — because it is a culture — and the risk factors of our clients?
Sarah:
Specifically, what I say, and it is that in every session that we do, the baseline — like, the baseline expectation for interacting with your client, be they Autistic, neurodivergent, whoever they are; a human being, sitting before us with human being rights — every session, we should be validating vulnerability, validating communication, and validating connection. So, when we think about that, your question specifically was about how do we — for sexual assault, like how are we, how do we do that, every single time your client shows up to your space, they should know that they are entering as you have curated and protected and actively protecting their vulnerabilities, so that they can tell you things. So that they can be believed, they can be seen. They can go someplace where someone isn’t going to intentionally misunderstand their words, because, you know, you should know how to say this in a more neuronormative way. To simply be is a gift. And it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be.
When you think about it, like with OT, it’s like, it’s actually our job to create a space where our clients can come and simply be. Validate their communication. We know, whether we’re talking about the double empathy issue or whatever, you know, we know that there are, number one, different ways that Autistics communicate. If we’re talking about AAC devices, if we’re talking about writing on pen and paper, if we’re talking about behavior, if we’re talking about, like, there are so many ways that Autistics communicate. And we need to simply validate the fact that they’re communicating, not control it.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen you know, somebody who’s incredibly upset, and we’re like, “Calm down. Use your calm words. Inside voice, please.” What? That’s not validating communication. And again, it’s our job to create and curate and protect spaces for people to be able to communicate in the ways that they communicate, period. Validating connection. You might be the person who needs to help them. You need to go in realizing that you’re entering into a relationship. And if your client needs further assistance, it’s actually your job to do so, per the framework. And you also need to know that maybe you’re not the person. Maybe you are actually, despite your best attempts, despite who you are, you’re not a safe space for them. Who can be that person then? Really validating who are the important people and who are the important systems in that person’s life where they can get help, removing the ego from that situation, and realizing it might not be you. And that’s okay.
Meg:
I love that, Sarah. I love how you’re framing the therapy space and the therapy relationship that we’re creating as a healing alternative to the dynamic of domination, of compliance, that exists in the world that allows for us to traumatize Autistic people, to traumatize women, to traumatize trans people, to traumatize BIPOC people, right, just anybody who diverges from the compliant cis-white man that we are culturally hoping for. We’re trying to sort of mold them as a culture into the norm. And you’re saying we can create the space that says, “Your communication matters. We’re listening to it. This is what communication should feel like. authentic connection matters. I’m connecting with you. This is what connection feels like.” And hold that as something that can and should be transferred into their daily lives, that should be expected, that should be asked for. It’s lovely. It’s lovely. And we can also —
Sarah:
I’m like — I’m sorry. I am tearing up now. Yeah.
Meg:
Yeah. And we can also talk about these things, right. Like you said before, we can talk about, we need to talk about our body parts, sex, consent, sexual assault, period. Not wait for somebody else to do it.
Sarah:
And if we can’t talk about it, be curious as to why.
Meg:
And find somebody else, like you said. “Hey, I’m noticing these things. I’m not the person for this. Let me help you find that person.”
Sarah:
Yeah.
Meg:
Oh, Sarah. There’s a lot, but of everything we’ve talked about today, if there’s one big takeaway that listeners walk away with, what do you hope that is?
Sarah:
All right. Ready?
Meg:
Ready.
Sarah:
Okay. You should want people to have good sex.
Meg:
Yes.
Sarah:
You should, but that’s really it. You should want people to have good sex. And if you don’t, why? What has happened to you in your life that you somehow, somewhere along the way picked up this idea that people should not have good sex? Why? Whoa, what the heck is going on? It’s a really interesting question. And you should find support to process that answer. It shouldn’t be with your clients. You need to get help. And I mean that in the most loving, inclusive Mama Bear hug way. You gotta heal yourself, because something happened. I had to go, like, my personal experiences in life were like, wonky. Like, not typical. Like, I grew up in a cult, a religious cult, that literally was the breeding ground to make Rush Limbaugh famous, right. And think about it. I’m a queer, disabled woman. And that’s where I grew up.
And so, it required me, because now, as I’m accepting this privilege of supporting people in the development of their identity, there’s this space that is so difficult for me. And it is my responsibility to go, and to seek out help, and to seek out resources and support to heal that, so that I don’t bring it in to the space with my client. Because my client has their own experience. And that’s all this session should be about, is our client. Not our stuff, right. So, if you’re going into it thinking, “Oh, sex is dirty,” that’s actually your problem to solve. And you should not be bringing it into your therapy space. So, that all starts with the radical challenge, that you should want people to have good sex.
Meg:
I love your call on us to do our own work. So, this is something that the counselling field, social work, licensed counsellors, psychologists — this is really central, right, in their work. They know that they have to do their own emotional work and not bring it into their sessions, not transfer it to their relationship with their clients; they explicitly know that their relationship with their clients should be healing, should be built up and then transferred into the world. We don’t really get that message as allied health professionals or whatever you want to call us, OTs, SLPs, PTs, probably teachers. And it’s really limiting us, right? If we cannot say, “I want my clients to have good sex. What is appropriate at this age that I can be doing to make sure that they have good sex and that they are treated respectfully and safely in their lives?” That we can just say, “I’m just gonna work on stacking blocks, because that makes me uncomfortable,” and have that be okay, because we haven’t done our own work. So, I love your call that we have to figure out our own stuff so we can show up better for our clients. That’s not what I was expecting you to say. And I love it.
Sarah:
Yes. That is, for me, personally, that has been the — I, actually, as a parent, I heard that from someone, another parent. “You should want your kids to have good sex,” and I was like, “What?” And then I was like, “Oh, wait a minute. Yes.” That’s actually true for me as a parent, and then I can — it’s actually easier for me to apply it to OT because OT is my job. It’s like, professionalism here, you know, it’s really something. It’s not hard for me to make that switch because I want to do a good job.
Meg:
I love that. Sarah, tell us what you’re working on now and where we can find you online.
Sarah:
Oh, you can find me online.
Meg:
[Laughs] True.
Sarah:
So, yes, Facebook, I’m primarily active on. I’m starting to be a little bit more active on Instagram. I am still working on establishing my website. There’s an emotional block with creating this website, and I am doing my work. So, but what I’ve been doing, and what I appreciate, is that I’ve been doing little workshops. And really, through the next couple of months, I’ve been really pushing sensory processing and trying to get the word out. So, if you want to visit my social media, there are lots of opportunities for people, whether you’re a neurodivergent individual all the way up to an occupational therapist, I’m creating a lot of opportunities for that education. I’ve been doing my sensory profile reports as a consultation. That’s going phenomenal. The feedback is wonderful. It’s actually revolutionary just to validate somebody’s sensory experience. And that, I say that, like I feel so privileged that I get to just sit with somebody and be like, “You actually do feel bad. Yes, absolutely,” and it’s really powerful. And, yeah, I’m gonna keep doing that work. That’s my passion. It’s my love. And I’m just going to keep showing up. And hopefully, there’ll be like — I actually, I’ve been paying for a website for two years, Meg. I have a website. I’m gonna work on it. Maybe the next time, Meg, I’ll have good news for you.
Meg:
It’s okay, your Facebook page is great. So, you’re The Autistic OT on Facebook, and I’ll link to it and everything else in the show notes. Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah:
You’re very welcome. Thank you, Meg.
Meg:
Talk to you soon.
[Ending music]
Thanks for listening to the Two Sides of the Spectrum podcast. Visit learnplaythrive.com/podcast for show notes, a transcript of the episode, and more. And if you learned something today, please share the episode with a friend or post it on your social media pages. Join me next time, where we will keep diving deep into autism.
