Interview between Speaker 1 (Meg) and Speaker 2 (Jen Harr)
Episode 75: Autistic Dating
[Introductory note]
Hey, it’s Meg. I wanted to talk to you before we get into this episode, which is about sex and sexuality. Often, therapists who work with young children say, “Oh, that’s really not relevant to me in my work.” And I just want to say that this is relevant because Autistic kids are being sexually assaulted and they need to know about consent. They need us to model it and talk about it. They need to know the names of body parts, and they need this language on their AAC devices if they use them. They’re also growing into adolescents who are developing their identity and their interests. Often, therapists just don’t know what to do. And often, no one has taught us how to address sex and sexuality with our clients. At Learn Play Thrive, we have an ethics continuing education course called ‘Ethics and Neurodiversity: Let’s Talk About Sex’. It’s taught by Autistic SLP, Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez, who I love learning from. It’s just one hour long, and it’s available on demand. We have great news, it’s now approved for ASWB CEU’s, so that’s for social workers, as well as being registered for AOTA and ASHA CEU’s for occupational therapists and speech language pathologists. Check it out at learnplaythrive.com/ethics.
[Introductory music]
Welcome to the Two Sides of the Spectrum Podcast. A place where we explore research, amplify Autistic voices, and change the way we think about autism in life, and in our professional therapy practices. I’m Meg Proctor from learnplaythrive.com.
Meg:
Before we get started, a quick note on language. On this podcast, you’ll hear me and many of my guests use identity-affirming language. That means we say ‘Autistic person’ rather than ‘person with autism’. What we’re hearing from the majority of Autistic adults is that autism is a part of their identity that they don’t need to be separated from. Autism is not a disease, it’s a different way of thinking and learning. Join me in embracing the word ‘Autistic’ to help reduce the stigma.
Welcome to Episode 75 with Jen Harr. Okay, have you ever wanted to pick the brain of an Autistic social worker on Autistic love and dating? Here’s the thing for those of us working with Autistic people of any age — many adolescents and adults have romantic interests, have sex, or become interested in having sex. They likely have a sexual orientation and a sexual identity. And often, they have absolutely no guidance. And like most things, if we aren’t learning from Autistic people about their experiences of romance, dating, and sex, we’re likely imposing our own experiences and beliefs onto our Autistic clients and missing the mark. In this episode, you’ll hear a moment where Jen and I are talking about what desire is and what it feels like in your body where I realized that I would have done just that, overgeneralized my own experience on to my Autistic clients.
Let me tell you about our guest. Jen Harr is a licensed clinical social worker in her hometown of Sylva, North Carolina, which is, in my part of the world, just west of Asheville. Jen runs a private practice called Spectrum Squared where she works with queer and Autistic adults. This is so cool. In 2022, she started a non-profit called Cornbread & Roses Community Counseling, whose mission is to increase access to LGBTQ+ support services in Western North Carolina by offering access to safe community spaces, wellness and therapeutic services, and queer-focused education. Okay, Jen wrote her bio for me and I kind of happy-cried when I got to this sentence. It says, “Jen enjoys consulting for Learn Play Thrive where she feels heard, included, and accepted.” And let me tell you, we, at Learn Play Thrive, love having Jen as our social work consultant as we work on registering our courses for social work CEU’s. Jen has a 200-pound St Bernard named Walt. She volunteers at the library used bookstore. She likes reading queer science fiction and collecting tiny plastic foods, and you can often find her at her local drag show in Sylva, which we talk about in the episode as well. I love this conversation, and I hope you do too. Here is the interview with Jen Harr.
Hi, Jen. Welcome to the podcast.
Jen:
Hi. Thank you for having me here.
Meg:
I’m excited to have you here, and really excited to talk about Autistic dating with you. I want to start by talking about you, Jen. Can you tell us a little bit about your work journey and how you got to this place where you’re doing what you do now?
Jen:
Yeah, that’s an awesome question. Actually, I started in the social work field. So, that was my Bachelor’s when I was in Florida. And so, I actually grew up in North Carolina, and then went to Florida for my Bachelor’s to be around family. My family’s in South Florida. And it was a really large culture shock down there. And what I realized is I really liked working with people, I liked working in communities and doing that. And as I found my own self in that journey, that got me into more of the neurodivergent space. And so, when I finished my social work degree there and came back to Sylva, I was all for being an English teacher, an English high school teacher. So, I was gonna go get my master’s degree and be an English high school teacher. And I knew a little bit about neurodivergence and queerness, those were two topics that, like I said, I loved in South Florida that I worked really, you know, around. But I just felt like I could make a bigger impact as an English teacher. Well, as I started that program, I was about the second semester in and I couldn’t do the assignments. I couldn’t do them. And I couldn’t, like, they wanted to use these English papers on metaphors. And I was like, “Oh, I’ve done this in undergrad,” but it was way, way more abstract than my brain could do. And so, I realized that I could be possibly undiagnosed with autism.
And so, that led me to that night, I remember I cried. I couldn’t — I dropped out of grad school. And I applied for the Social Work Program at App State. And I just poured my heart out to them and said, “You’re the only place I’m applying to, I want to be at App State, and I want to do your social work,” because they had a community organization program there. So, I researched that. I said, it’s close enough to home. I’m just, I’ve just got to tell them they have to have me. And thankfully, my grades and everything, they did accept me. And so, I really blossomed there, just, you know, because I was trying to find myself. And so, in finding myself, I kept working in autism and disability, and saw the intersection of queerness in there. And so, as I finished that degree, I worked in Asheville doing therapy, and volunteered a few places there. And it just kept being a part of my work. I kept getting clients that were trans and Autistic. And it became like a special interest wrapped around my identity, wrapped around my love. And I don’t know if that answers your question, but that is how I am here. It’s just a going my own journey, finding myself, that landed me in this spot.
Meg:
Absolutely. And if folks aren’t familiar with Western North Carolina, it’s not a place that always has — especially in the rural parts west of Asheville, which is where I am — it’s not a place that always has access to a ton of resources, especially like supports for queer, gender non-conforming trans folks. So, I’m glad your story played out like it did and that we got to keep you here in Western Carolina. How did your journey as a social worker sort of evolve towards supporting queer folks, gender non-conforming folks, focusing on neurodivergent dating? How did you wind up there?
Jen:
Yeah, so it was, you know, the sphere of my clients kept coming to me. So, I always want to talk about what their needs are, but then again, my own. So, I wasn’t able to date. I didn’t understand; it wasn’t something I could do. And my clients were coming in at the exact same way. They’re like, “I don’t know what gender is, I don’t even know what these things are. What is sexuality? What am I attract — like, what is attraction?” And so, I’m sitting in a room with someone and they’re asking me what attraction is. And I’m like, shrug. Let’s go look in the book, right? So, like, I pull out a book, and I’m like, let’s look what the book says attraction is. And so, that’s really what got me here, is again, my own journey of deeply not being, you know, ever feeling like I could be in a relationship or understanding that. And then, my clients saying the same things. And the queer space, honestly, my own journey of my own sexuality. And then, I had a really, had really close friends that were part of that community. And growing up, as you said, growing up in Western North Carolina, really, there’s only Christianity here. And so, I am Jewish. My family is Jewish. My dad moved us here when I was very little. So, I say I grew up in Jackson, I’m not from here. Those are very different words and they’re fighting words in Western North Carolina. You’re not from somewhere if you don’t have generations here. But yeah, so I was figuring out, you know, my own self. And in that time period I, you know, being Jewish I wasn’t invited into church communities. I wasn’t — or if I was invited, they were trying to convert me to Christianity. So, I really felt aligned with a lot of queer folks because they were also kicked out. So, it’s kind of like, you know, sitting outside of the room where all the community members are, and we’re not allowed in unless we say, “I’m not Jewish, I’m not queer, I’m not these things.” And so, it really gave me, I say, we’re the community of misfits, because that’s really what happened. And so, in my own learning my own brain, and then realizing my queer friends that I love so much also were neurodivergent. And so, that intersection, you know, was such a big piece of my work. And so, again, it’s just kind of this journey of slowly unfolding myself, and being open to that. And then, also being open to my clients, and being and watching how they work through their journeys as well. And that transparency has been really, really huge.
Meg:
It’s so interesting how you say, you know, you’re an adult, and you had to ask, wait, what is attraction? What is sexuality? Like, what are my preferences? What, how am I oriented, how do I identify? We have this very short ethics course by Autistic occupational therapist, Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez, who talked about sex in Episode 46 of the podcast as well, sex and sexuality. And it’s on neurodiversity and sexuality. And it’s geared towards people who work with kids of all ages. And I have people who email me and say, “Oh, that course isn’t for me. I work with children.” And I’m like, yes, it is. Because we talk about —
Jen:
Yes, it is. Please, it is. Please.
Meg:
Yeah, how to talk about body parts, how to model consent, like, are we putting this language in kids’ AAC devices? So, they can say ‘No’, so they can report things?
Jen:
Thank you.
Meg:
Talk about their preferences? Like, if nobody’s talking to Autistic kids, and then Autistic teens —
Jen:
You have a really, you have a really good point. Thank you for bringing that up, is that the sexual experiences for AFAB — I say AFAB, assigned female at birth — that’s a lot of the population I work with — queer, trans, assigned female at birth — would tell me that since they didn’t know attraction, and since there was the major wanting to fit in, a lot of them from a very, very, very early age were assaulted. And, you know, we really — or if they had ABA, which we don’t have to get into, they weren’t allowed to say ‘No’, right? There was no ‘No’, was not allowed. And so, thank you for that. Because I scream out at the rooftops that as soon as kids can talk, we should be talking about consent.
Meg:
Yeah, I agree.
Jen:
And yeah, as soon as they can walk, as soon as they can all of those things, this is my body. And this is, you know, because if they don’t, then how are they supposed to keep themselves safe?
Meg:
Yeah. And I’ll say it explicitly for people who, just in case anybody didn’t follow the link between behaviorist approaches like ABA and sexual assault, teaching kids that they don’t get to say ‘No’, that their ‘No’ doesn’t matter, that adults can override their ‘No’, that they don’t even have to be asked permission, is really grooming them for sexual assault. Because they are learning from a very young age and intensively that they don’t have control over their body and their choices. And they’re already at such high risk of sexual assault, so.
Jen:
I’m gonna have to, like, take that recording and copy it and keep it in my phone and listen to you over and over and over again, because that made me tear up hearing you say that, so thank you. I appreciate it.
Meg:
Yeah. Yeah, I had been sort of rallying against hand-over-hand — OT’s do this a lot — of moving Autistic kids hand for a while. And it was actually Sarah Selvaggi-Hernandez, who I mentioned before, my Autistic OT colleague, who connected it to sexual assault for me. And it was just like, okay, this is just a no. This is just something we can’t keep doing. I want to talk about Autistic dating, though.
Jen:
Yes.
Meg:
So, a lot of folks who listen are working with Autistic kids, Autistic teens, young adults, adults. They’re OT’s, SLP’s, social workers, counselors, and we’re working with people who are going to be developing an interest in relationships, dating, romantic relationships, figuring out who they are, what they like. And often, we just kind of avoid this because we don’t know much about it. So, for providers who are not Autistic, what do we need to know about Autistic dating? Not that it’s like some sort of monolithic construct, but just generally.
Jen:
The first sentence I’ll say is, it is not hierarchical. So, I really want to say that. And this is in the past few weeks that I’ve been able to put it in words, is that neurotypical people tend to think that you have this hierarchy of relationships, so that you’re dating and your sex life is your number one person. And then, underneath that you have friends. And then, underneath, you know, family might, may or may not, come underneath that. Well, Autistic people don’t have hierarchies. We just really don’t. We don’t like them; we don’t understand them. They’re social constructs. We’re like, we don’t care if it’s the president, you know. If my dog and the President are in the same room, I’m gonna go to my dog, right? Like, I’m gonna be like, “Hi, Walt,” and then, maybe like, “Who’s this guy over here?” right? So, we don’t have these, you know, these hierarchies of power, usually. And again, it’s not a monolith. But this idea that, you know, we love certain people, and we don’t think of romantic or sex attraction, that that means that that person should be more important to us. And the reason that that’s so important is because a lot of times, either it’s avoided, like you said, so there’s like this avoidance of we’re just not going to talk about sexuality or sex, because you don’t, you know, you have a disability, or you have this, you know, you’re unable to talk about it. Or it’s like, we have this neurotypical idea that someone is going to marry our Autistic son and take care of him, which is a very weird thing that also happens in the autism community, where we try to find someone to like, where it’s not even a romantic, right? It’s like, I want my son to find — and I know, I see your face. I know, I know what you’re talking about —
Meg:
I’m cringing, yeah.
Jen:
Yeah. So, it’s like this where parents will push their Autistic sons to go to social events. And then, you’ll have folks afterwards that tell me like, they were literally just trying to find a partner for their son. And so, both of those are really cringy to me, because it’s putting either the hierarchy at the very top, or the very bottom, right. So, both of those are kind of binary. I always say that Autistic folks are very all-or-nothing unless it’s gender and sexuality. Those are the two things that we love the spectrum of. We understand that, for some reason. And so, my big thing with Autistic dating is kind of wrapping around to that beginning part that you brought up is, you know, here I am as an adult in my mid-20’s. And someone says, “I want the definition of attraction,” or not the definition. Sorry, that’s what we ended up going to. It was, “What is attraction?” And so, I was so used to this road of like, oh, it’s when you’re attracted — well, how do I know I’m attracted to somebody? And so, when someone asks you that as a therapist, you’re like, well, that’s really abstract, right. So, I’m sitting there, I’m like, how do I know? Well, have you been on a date? And I’m like, well, yeah, but they were pretty terrible [Laughs]. Or I didn’t know they were a date.
And so, I back up, and I really focus on what does this person, the client in front of me, want? And almost every single time when I work with any age, they want someone in their life that cares about them, that supports them, but that also leaves them alone when they want their own time. So, Autistic people like our downtime. And so, it’s more about what kind of supports — when I say supports, which some people think that means pain. It’s not what I mean. Our supports are our best friends. So, I tell neurotypical people, they have supports all the time that are their best friends. So, what is it that you think that your needs are? What can you provide somebody else? And what could that look like? And a lot of the times, Autistic folks are either on the ace spectrum. So, I want to be really clear that asexuality does not mean that you don’t have sex. There are different layers of asexuality, and we can talk about that too. But, I mean, so you don’t have sexual attraction. So, it’s a very different answer, right. So, you could say, oh, yeah, I’m sex favorable. But I don’t look at someone and be like, I want to jump on them, right? So, it’s the attraction is not there. Does not mean that you’re without sex. And so, at times, when we’re sitting there talking about what your needs are, I really bring it up of like, what do you want? And a lot of folks don’t, even though that that’s a possibility. And so, that’s what I tried to really focus on, is what do you want? And is that possible? Is that a thing? And does it look like what you’re used to seeing, which is that neurotypical ‘This is my partner, this is the only person I’m dating’? And that’s fine, too. We have people that want that too. But most of the time, I get folks that want really close friends. They might not like to be touched, and that’s okay. And I call them poly-supports, or poly-best friends. And just taking it really slow and making sure that the person that you’re working with is in charge, and feels that they have a say, and consent, and what that looks like. And sometimes, it’s even like, you know, if you don’t even know what sexual stuff is to look at different avenues. Like, what’s an ethical porn site? What’s a — like, really, I mean, I know people are like, “Oh, my God, I’m not gonna let my kid do that,” like, I’ve had parents be like, “I’m not buying my kid, you know, this or that.” And it’s like, well, if you’re, you know, if your kid is trying to figure it out, we try to do it as ethically as possible and as understanding for them because, like we said in the beginning, is that sexual assault can happen because we don’t know how to support our kids. So, I kind of went around the answer there for you, but it’s really just being with our clients and asking what they want, and being open to the fact that neurodivergent people don’t have to have this monogamous one person that meets all of their needs. Most of the time, we really like polyamory. And being okay with that, that multiple people meet our needs in multiple ways, has been such a beautiful gift to myself and a lot of the folks I work with.
Meg:
That’s so lovely. In a lot of ways what you’re describing parallels the self-advocacy process that we talk about all the time on the podcast, that you can’t do it until you know yourself.
Jen:
Yes, yeah.
Meg:
Like, what do you need, what do you like, what do you want? And then, you figure out how to ask for it, right.
Jen:
Yes.
Meg:
And asking for it doesn’t start out as like, “Hello, hear my needs. And this is what I want.” Sometimes that’s a supported process together with whoever you’re negotiating this with, a partner or potential partner. And then I also thought, Jen, when you’re talking about how easy it is to not realize we’re imposing our own paradigm or norms onto our clients, because my mind, when you start talking about attraction, went to interoception. We talk on the podcast and in the Summit about your ability to assess your internal state. So, without knowing much about asexuality, without knowing how your client experiences desire, it would be so easy to take this interoceptive approach and talk about, “Oh, attraction is when your heart does this thing, and your stomach does this thing, and your palms sweat,” and describing our own experience of attraction that might not be that client’s experience. You’ve never had that.
Jen:
I’ve never had that, right. Yeah, yeah. And it’s funny, because when you’re saying your palms sweat, I’m like, really? Okay, you know. [Laughs]
Meg:
It’s kind of unpleasant, actually.
Jen:
That’s interesting.
Meg:
It’s really similar to anxiety.
Jen:
That’s what I’ve heard, definitely, yeah. My therapist, I love my own therapist. I’ve had her for over six years, I don’t even know how many, but I love her. And she’ll say things like that, because I’m working on my own interoception, all of that. And so, we talk about that. She’ll say, like, different things and I’m like, that just feels like anxiety. She’s like, yeah, it does kind of, you know. So, when you said that, I’m like, oh, yeah. Okay, that makes, that helps me. So, there’s a book, ‘Sounds Fake, but Okay’. It’s also a podcast. And I love that one, you can find that on the resources on my website. And it really kind of blew my brain up, because it’s only like 150 pages, but it talks about asexuality as an attraction. And, you know, people think that something’s wrong with you if you don’t want to have sex, or that if you’re not attracted to someone that there’s a medical problem, or that it’s your meds, or that it’s — and that’s not always the case. So, yeah.
Meg:
Yeah, that’s so helpful. And one of the things that you do and have done for several years is support Autistic trans youth. Can you share some of your guiding principles in supporting these folks?
Jen:
Yeah, it goes back to this and what you’re talking about, about self-advocacy. So, I feel like that space is such a precious and sacred space to share with a trans youth. Queer, Autistic youth is some of the spaces that’s just so, so sacred. And what I mean by sacred is, is that you have someone in front of you that doesn’t always have autonomy of their own body. They’re under 18. Right now, especially with the bills passing, they’re not so, you know, sure what people think about them outside. So, you bring them in your office, and you’re sitting with them, and you’re allowing them to talk about themselves. And if they’re neurodivergent, they might not even know what that means. So, again, when I say sacred, I don’t mean that in a religious way. I mean it in a very, like, empowering, and loving, and nurturing way of that, you know, I might have clients take months to just start talking about it. That, you know, they don’t, they don’t know, you know, they don’t know what gender is, or again, what is sexual attraction, right? So, I get the same, is what is gender? How do I even know that, you know, I might like to be more masculine one day or more feminine another day. Does that mean this thing? So, we have a gender workbook, also, that’s on my website, that we kind of work through and talk about and try to make some of those abstract things more concrete. But what I love so much about that is that you always — or not always, I shouldn’t say always, because that is not the case. But you get to walk alongside someone who is so young, and letting them know that it’s okay if they change their mind. Or we have these ideas that — and I’ll say ‘we’ — there are ideas that us therapists and doctors that work with trans youth are forcing — it’s wild to me — forcing hormones or forcing treatment or forcing surgeries, and that’s the last thing that we force, right. We really want to show them, again, like your self-advocacy you’re talking about, show them their options and what does it mean. And it is the most self-advocacy thing you can do, is to just decide who you are. And so, sometimes that’s just a name change. Sometimes it’s just a little bit baggier clothing. Sometimes it’s, you know, I’ve had kids that we only, you know, have their clothes, or only change when they’re in my office, or we only use different pronouns when it’s just the two of us. And we, you know, practice and play around with it. And it’s just, yeah, I guess, sacred. I mean that in like a very special way. Is that —? Yeah.
Meg:
That’s so lovely. And this dovetails really nicely with a few of the other episodes we’ve had on the podcast where we’ve talked about how as, especially OT’s and SLP’s, where we’re not, you know, explicitly providing mental health services or sitting down to talk about gender and sexuality, how we can make our spaces clearly safe, clearly affirming places where it is okay for folks to share with us if they want their preferred pronouns, their sexual identity, and for us to hold that within that space, or wherever they’re comfortable with that living. So, people can go back and listen to the episodes with Ruchi Kapila, AC Goldberg, and Lyric. We’ve talked about that a few times on the podcast. That sounds really special, though, the way you hold space in your sessions.
Jen:
Yeah, it’s really about, yeah, making sure that it feels genuine and loving, and that it’s okay if you decide different things.
Meg:
Yeah. And I’ll put your resources in the show notes, too, that you mentioned. Yeah. Thank you. I want to dive into a few examples. Can you share some composites or de-identified examples that sort of exemplify how you might support your clients in your sessions or in their lives?
Jen:
Oh, gosh. Let me think of some really cool ones I’ve had. And this has been a few clients, actually, where they were teens, and they weren’t sure yet how their parents would feel about changing pronouns. And so, I have this thing where I love young kids just being able to understand each other. And so, we would bring a younger sibling in, and we’d say, “Hey, you’re the first person, like, even before the parents,” right? And every single time that I’ve done this, and the kid, you know, the kid will be outside waiting for their older kid who’s with me, right. Like, you’re having therapy waiting for them come out, and we’ll be like, “Hey, we’re inviting you in.” And you’re actually, like, the first person that’s gonna hear this and, and the younger sibling is just like, “I already knew. Cool.” And like, “I’m gonna go play again,” or and hug and kiss their sibling and leave. And that has been, like, you know, the younger siblings don’t even realize how huge, and I’m always like, oh, no, am I doing the right thing, right? Because we bring the younger sibling in and we’re like, “Hi, we’re inviting you in because we want to tell you that your sibling wants you to use these pronouns.” And then, we’ll usually bring the parents in later. And so, we’ll tell the rules to the little kid, “Hey, so you’re only going to use these pronouns when you’re in a room by yourself, and do you think that’s okay?” you know, or, “How do you feel about that?” And every single time those younger siblings are just like, “Yeah, like, we knew. Like, this is cool.” And it really helps that the older sibling — of like, I always protected my younger siblings. So, that kind of role reverses, right, this idea of, I get to be a big, you know, a big little sibling, right, of like I get to — and then, further down the road, when we’re able to tell parents, oh, look at the younger sibling, we’ll bring the sibling in again. And parents always like, what? They think that the sibling shouldn’t be allowed to hear that. And I’ll say, “Okay, it’s your job, you know, that you have to correct your parents when they use the wrong pronoun. Not my client’s job, you know, not your older sibling’s job, it’s your job to correct them.” And so, then they’re like the, you know, the officer, right. So, like, every time mom or dad uses the wrong word, if the younger sibling that’s like, “[Clears throat] Wait a minute, Jen said that we had, that I’m the person that gets to tell you that you used the wrong one.” And so, that gives power to more of the members of the family. So, that’s been a really cool experience for multiple of my clients.
I have this thing where probably it’s my own Autistic hierarchy where we’re supposed to, like, you know, ask the parents first. But I definitely love that side angle of bringing in siblings and having them, especially younger siblings, and having them be able to witness and protect and love their older siblings. So, that’s one of the really cool examples I have. And then, and that’s been multiple, so that’s very deidentified. And then, another one is being able to connect them to other trans and non-binary folks. So, we have here at Cornbread & Roses, which is where I support in a larger LGBT community center here in Western North Carolina, and I’ve had folks come in and see their therapist looks queer, right, like looks. And so, those stories of having support groups or having meetings and they come in and they see someone that looks like them. And that’s been just the coolest thing. Like, this isn’t a medical problem, right. This is like, this is who we are as humans. So, yeah, that’s another example of just trying to make sure that we have spaces and we have abilities and pictures. So, we were saying, you know, what are ways that SLP’s — yeah, right, like some specific examples. And so, I always say, like, yeah, you could throw a rainbow up, or you could throw, like, there’s these little, like, performative, we call them, but a lot of good, a lot of cool things is like if you have a family member who’s queer that’s open to you putting a photograph on your desk of the two of them together. If you have, you know, a person that you really are close to, and they’re okay with that. That’s always a thing I tell folks, is like, actually have real photos of people in your life that are not heterosexual because that’s what we look for, right. The rainbow is kind of just like, okay, another rainbow, so.
Meg:
That’s a great suggestion. I appreciate you bring it back to representation. And in our books that we’re using in our session as well, art on our walls. Yeah, I was over here, just tearing up when you were giving the younger sibling example. Children have so much access to this, like, full range of humanity that we somehow unlearned, and then have to relearn into adulthood. But I love that example so much. And connecting folks to other people who share their identities, we’re hearing that over and over again as an important way to build a sense of inclusion and belonging, which is so important for the well-being and self-identity of our clients, and also a space to unmask in all of the ways. So, Autistic only spaces, queer spaces, trans spaces, that’s a really simple thing that people in any field can make sure that they’re connecting their clients to. A place where they where they fit in, where they’re the norm for a moment, where they’re the majority for a moment.
Jen:
You know, it’s so true you say that because Cornbread & Roses, in this space that we have a game night, sober game night. So, there’s no substances allowed, all ages. And it is some of my favorite, it’s probably one of my favorite events that we do. And it’s because the majority of us are neurodivergent, Autistic, usually queer, and show up to — some of us play our own games, or read, or we don’t want to interact, right. Some of us do interact with each other. There’s spaces for you to go into an office if you want to be more quiet, but it’s just we share food and share games, and we’re the majority and it’s okay. You can openly stim; you can openly wear whatever clothes you want, you know. It’s just this, just loving group of folks. And so, I really, yeah, that resonates a lot, for sure.
Meg:
That sounds incredibly fun. When we did the live podcast interview with Rachel Dorsey and V. Tisi on Autistic social communication, somebody said, “If we have this community space where we were doing social skills groups, what can we do instead that would actually be beneficial to the Autistic community?” And I love what you’re describing, right. It’s like, replace it with game nights where people can come as they are.
Jen:
It’s our biggest our, yeah, it’s our biggest event. Like, we have the most people come to game night, because you’re right, you can come exactly as you are, doesn’t matter. And you don’t have to talk to people, you can play your own game or play on your phone. Nobody is, you know, demanding you of doing anything. And yeah, it’s funny, too, because going back to the Autistic dating piece, I’m wrapping myself back around to that, is that I often tell my clients that if they want to meet people to do it in the wild. And so, I say go out in the wild. And what I mean by that — it’s funny, because you said this — to do what you’re talking about, is to try to find events where the majority are going to be like you, because it’s oftentimes, I mean, you might not find someone that you’re going to date, but you are going to be able to be yourself and have, you know, talk about your special interests with someone who’s more than open to wanting to talk about it.
Meg:
This is really, really different than what we might have thought of if you said, “Oh, an Autistic dating coach,” which is not your title, but I’m just imagining if somebody put somebody in that role, you imagine this discrete social skills training, how to mask yourself and present in a way that’s appeasing to other people leading to like, utterly unsatisfying and unauthentic —
Jen:
Horrifying.
Meg:
Yeah, it’s the exact opposite of what you’re describing.
Jen:
It’s the exact opposite of what I do. Yeah. So, I think of like, do you know that movie where it was with Will Smith, and he’s a dating coach, and he tells people how to be the perfect partner, and then the joke of the movie is that they never ever, ever do what he says to do? And I love that. I forget the name of the movie.
Meg:
Is it — is it ‘Hitch’?
Jen:
Yes. Yes. Yes, it is. So, it’s called ‘Hitch’ and it’s, I was crying and I didn’t even know I was Autistic when that movie came out and when I watched it, but what’s so — I always bring that up when people want to do discrete social training, is that with Autistic folks — [Laughs] I’ll start laughing. You can tell us, and do every social story, and like social story by Carol Gray, sorry, trademarks, Carol Gray. You can literally write, like, write the scripts for social dating. And if there was a fly on the wall, the person wouldn’t do any of the things that you want them to do. Because Autistic people don’t do that. We don’t communicate, like, social discrete training just, I think stuff like that is really great for parents to check off the list, but it doesn’t actually do much at the end of the day.
Meg:
Yeah. And if it does, it’s to the detriment of the Autistic person. So, this is a nice tie in. A few years ago, everybody was emailing me being like, “What do you think about ‘Love on the Spectrum’?” And there are a lot of Autistic folks responding to that show. I’m curious if you can share your thoughts on it for people who are still thinking about this show.
Jen:
You know, I have back-and-forth thoughts. I, you know, usually I’m the person that’s like, again, the all or nothing. But with this one, I actually am a little more grey in. And the reason for that is I think it’s one of the only shows that seems to try to be authentic. So, I only watched the first season. I heard the American season was terrible and not to watch it. So, I have not watched any of the American ones. But I think the one that I watched was the Australia one, right. That was the first one. And I only watched the first season. So, I can only give from what I know of that. And what I found it to be was pretty authentic in the sense of I felt like they really showed Autistic people. What I didn’t like about it was what we’re talking about, is that coaching. It was interesting, a couple of people texted me and said that I reminded them of that dating coach, which I was like, what? You think I’m like her? Like, I’m like, no! But it was interesting that people thought that, but what I — I guess the reason I liked some of the things I liked in that first season was the couples that were already together that they showed. So, those I liked. So, there was a couple, I don’t know if you saw them, one that had like a snake, I remember that. I remember details of things. But anyway, one of the couples, so it wasn’t that that the show put them together, they were showing in the first season a couple of Autistic already together couples. And so, I thought that was really cool. I did hear later on in the other seasons it was more about like the dating coach and putting people together. And I’m not, that’s not really a big thing for me. I think we’re much better authentically finding each other. And it goes back to what do people want? And I know I say that a lot. But that has been my biggest, my biggest thing for myself, personally. Like, what do I want? And to go to an Autistic dating coach and to be told what to say? And it just, it sounds just absolutely anxiety-ridden and horrifying.
Meg:
Yeah. I know, there’s been some critique from the Autistic community, too, of it being a little bit pedantic and paternalism with the role of the parents and the way that young adults were treated like children. But I do like how you brought us back around to that question of looking inward and figuring out what you want. Because especially for, I mean, for women of all neurotypes, and then you add on Autistic women who have had all of this intensive behaviorist training, undoing the people pleasing, which is so damaging, of that does require a lot of practice, right, of deciding that what you want matters, figuring out what it is you want, deciding that you’re worth asking for it, and then figuring out how to ask for it. That’s a — I imagine that that’s a very healing practice in a lot of ways for a lot of Autistic folks.
Jen:
And then, it takes a lot of time, a whole lot of time. So much time. I know that if you start, you know — I say ‘if you’ meaning a therapist or SLP — start noticing, I call it like this blank face of just like, “Yes, yes.” Then you, then sometimes I’m like, oh, I’m in the, like, behavioral space right now. This person is saying ‘Yes’ to me because they don’t know what to do anything else with. And so, you see this like change happen, right, over their face where like, they’re not understanding what you’re saying, but they know that they need to please you. And so, I notice it with adults all the time. And so, I have to pause them and be like, let’s stop for a second. Like, let’s take some deep breaths and let’s, like, maybe the subject is not one that you’re ready for, or maybe, you know, because I’m hearing you say ‘Yes’ and shake your head at me, but I’m not really — like, I’m seeing a glazed look on you. It’s wild to see that happen.
Meg:
They’re in fight or flight, yeah. I want to direct people back on that note to Gillian Boudreau’s episode because often as OT’s and SLP’s also, I’ll speak for that sort of field, we are so ‘meet your goal’ oriented. It’s, “Meet your goals, we need to think about the goal,” that we forget about our client’s internal state and that ‘Yes’ can feel like this is an easy session. Got a bunch of ‘Yes’s, they did the thing, met the goal, sending it off to insurance. It’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, but what’s happening inside of your client?
Jen:
And what about the schedule that, right, let’s say we create a schedule for them. And they know that if they get it all right, and they do the right thing, they go get a sundae at McDonald’s afterwards. Like, let’s really break it down, right. “So, after you go to your session, we’re gonna go to McDonald’s afterwards and get a sundae,” they’re gonna be like, “Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I get my sundae now,” right.
Meg:
Yeah.
Jen:
Right? And you can’t say, “Yes, yes, yes,” when it’s, you’re talking about something like what your relationship is. And we don’t talk enough about relationships of a lot of Autistic people like to live alone, or, you know, like to have their alone time and parallel play with another person. And, you know, it’s like, if you don’t like to be hugged or touched, and then someone wants to have sex with you, like, what? Like, recently, I was telling someone the other day that I was like, it was so weird for me that I was like, people do that? People have sex? Like, what? When I was younger, like, learning about that, I was like, that’s a thing? Like, who wouldn’t do that? And I don’t think we talk about that enough in the Autistic community — or that neurotypical community, that a lot of Autistic folks might not even, that might not even be on the radar of something that they would want or even know what it is.
Meg:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for bringing these things onto our radar. Tell me, what’s something that you’re excited about, the present or the future of Autistic dating.
Jen:
I am really excited for the continued communication and talk with other neurotypical people, with other SLP’s, therapists, social workers, about taking away that hierarchical, what we, what they think — not ‘we’, what they think, and what culture says that dating should look like and be like. And so, I’m excited and hopeful that we will have more representations of, you know, what it could look like to have many people meet our needs, and not have it be just this, you know, married person and have one person. So, that’s really what I’m hopeful, is that we can break apart romantic space that we’ve done with so many other things in the autism world and community.
Meg:
Lovely. Thank you so much, Jen. Tell us what you’re working on now, and where we can find you and all of your projects online so that we can continue to learn from you.
Jen:
Yeah. So, again, thank you so much for having me. So, my private practice is Spectrum Squared, and that is a spectrum of queerness and autism. And so, I have some clients there, but that’s actually lowered a little bit because I have really put under my wing Cornbread & Roses, which is the community counseling non-profit that we have in Western North Carolina. So, you can find me there doing community outreach, supervising interns and therapists, and we work specifically with LGBT folks, and a lot of neurodivergent folks, again, fall under that umbrella. We do everything from food, we’re creating transformations room — yes, transformations — that will be for folks to have gender euphoria. So, haircuts, clothing, that kind of thing, we’re working on this summer. I love our local drags scene here, that Sylva Belles Drag. So, you can usually catch me at one of their shows in Sylva. And I just, yeah, the queer community has just, you’ll find me usually around there. So, Spectrum Squared, Cornbread & Roses, those are the places that you can contact me. And then, if it’s a random day in the week and I have spare time, I am at the Friends of the Library in Jackson County, the used bookstore there is also my favorite place.
Meg:
So cool. Here I come running out to Sylva right now. This is awesome. Thank you so much, Jen. I’ll link to everything in the show notes. And thanks again for coming on the podcast.
Jen:
Thank you.
[Ending music]
Thanks for listening to the Two Sides of the Spectrum podcast. Visit learnplaythrive.com/podcast for show notes, a transcript of the episode, and more. And if you learned something today, please share the episode with a friend or post it on your social media pages. Join me next time, where we will keep diving deep into autism.
