Meg:
Welcome to our very first episode with Matt Lowry, who's an Autistic licensed psychological practitioner. Today, you are going to get a sweeping overview into co-occurring conditions that Autistic people often experience, including OCD, depression, anxiety, ADHD, and more. Listen through to the end because Matt and I take a topic that can feel huge and overwhelming and reduce it to a few core themes that make affirming practice feel clear, grounded, and simple even when we are supporting clients with more complex profiles and more complex lives. 

Matt Lowry lives and practices in Kentucky, where he specializes in autism and ADHD evaluations, and Autistic-centered therapy. He is the proud parent of an Autistic child and works to promote an understanding of autism and the Autistic lifestyle. Here is the conversation with Autistic licensed psychological practitioner Matt Lowry. 

Hi, Matt. Welcome back to the podcast. 

Matt:
Hi. It's been a minute. I'm glad to be back. 

Meg:
It has. I've missed talking to you because I love talking to you, and I always learn so much. And this is our very first episode with our new name, and I wanna go really deep into some of the more complex and varied ways that being Autistic looks like and feels like for different folks, including those with co-occurring conditions. So, one topic that we haven't discussed much on the podcast is OCD, or obsessive compulsive disorder. Can you talk about OCD, and what OCD and being Autistic looks like together? 

Matt:
Oh, man. Okay. So, starting out with a complex one. Okay, so, OCD is a sort of a rumination on rituals that you have to do or thoughts that you can't escape. And for instance, if you can't get the house clean enough and you need to clean it four or five times a day with heavy-duty scrubbers, and it causes you a great deal of distress because you just can't reach that mythological safety point, then that can be a problem. If you think about this 24/7, it can be a very big problem. And it's actually a very, very common thing for people who are Autistic because — so, number one, we are bottom-up data processors, which means that we see more detail than most people. And we absolutely need systems in order to deal with all that added data. 

One of the side effects of that systems is that, to an outsider, we can become incredibly rigid because we absolutely need a system in order to control the chaos. And even on that level, to a person who is not experienced in such things, it can look like OCD just to have that need for the sameness to mitigate the chaos, to give you enough bandwidth to manage all of the chaotic variables that we inevitably experience. 

But, that said, we can also dive into OCD really hard. And I've had periods in my life where I've had OCD because, for instance, when I was much younger — I still, to a certain extent, am — very mysophobic, germophobic, especially after COVID. But having a child sort of helped that because for a period, you never knew if something was chocolate or poop, and after a while you're just like, "Okay, so I can't control this. What can I control about all this?" But for a long time I would — I love arcade games, and I would wear gloves to an arcade because I didn't want my hands to smell like cigarette smoke, and it was kind of funky and everything. And I still wash my hands every time I come into the house. 

But again, in a world post-COVID, I rationalize that because the world is a weird, icky place. So, but it doesn't cause me the same level of distress as it once did. And I think that's the thing that differentiates the OCD from just the structures, because if you have a manageable structure that you're able to implement that has a logical basis in order to mitigate all of the other data, I see that as being okay. But if it causes you distress, and the people around you great distress, and everybody's like, "Why are you so obsessed with that door over there?" You know, that could be a problem that you need to look into, and need to sort of rewrite the code on that in order to live a more stress-free life, because God knows we've got enough stress as is. 

Meg:
It's almost like the definition of substance abuse where, like, if it's impairing your life, if it's interfering with your ability to live a good life, then it is a problem. What should providers know about what is affirming and supportive and what isn't for Autistic folks who also have OCD? 

Matt:
Well, one of the neat things about the Autistic and the ADHD brain is that we don't prune like neurotypicals do. They discovered the lack of synaptic pruning in Autistic people back in 2003. But it was only two years ago that they found that ADHD people also don't prune. So, because of that, we don't habituate like neurotypicals. So, therefore, habituation causes C-PTSD for us instead of finding new systems to work around it, and that's the neuro-affirming way to go about things. Is there a better way to handle mysophobia or difficulties with the randomness, difficulties with the chaos, difficulties with the changes so that we can live a more relaxed, less stressful life and let the system do the heavy lifting on that? 

And, once again, just trying to tell us, "Just get used to it," we will not get used to it. We don't do that. We don't form habits. ADHD people do not form habits either. This is why we are good neuro-kin, because we need good systems even if you may bristle under the systems that you yourself designed. We need ways to do that because we are not going to just automatically wake up one day, brush our teeth, jump in clothes, go out the door on time, and get there. It's just not going to happen. 

Meg:
Yeah. And I just want to define a term you used. You mentioned C-PTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, right, which is caused by ongoing stressors, not a single traumatic event. 

Matt:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And this is one thing that is more common for Autistic and ADHD people. Because of the lack of synaptic pruning, we have hyperdense, hyperconnected amygdala. And those amygdala are responsible for the fight-flight-freeze-fawn responses. And studies have shown that we still need more research on ADHD people, but studies have shown for Autistic people, we are more likely to be traumatized by things that do not traumatize neurotypical people. 

And also, by definition, if a neurotypical person becomes traumatized, they are therefore neurodivergent because neurotypical people do not have trauma. That's a whole thing. So, allistic people — well, I hate to use that, too, because again, ADHD people are probably in the same boat, but there's a dearth of research on that. In any case, the hyperdense, hyperconnected amygdala is more likely to pick up on these stressors, have a trauma response, and you're more likely to have ongoing traumas like rejection sensitivity, perception sensitivity. People are more likely to judge you on a regular basis, and you're more likely to have episodes of burnout and all of these other different traumas that can happen. 

And that happens with ADHD kids, too, especially if you're judged for not conforming and fitting in with these expectations in a very rigid school system. And this traumatizes generations of kids and makes them think that they are not good enough, or somehow defective for not being able to mesh with a system that's just not designed for their neurology, and that is really, really problematic. And that's the reason why we have a heightened rate of substance abuse and suicide. And it's very, very problematic, and it's probably one of the highest co-morbid issues that we face. 

But at the same time, I was reading an article earlier about one of the politicized reasons as to why the ICD-10 has complex PTSD but the DSM doesn't, is because if we acknowledge C-PTSD in the DSM-6, then that means that a great deal of the other diagnoses would therefore be subject to C-PTSD because anxiety, depression, and even elements of OCD and personality disorders would be subject to C-PTSD. Because there's a reason that these things develop; it just doesn't spring out of the blue. And there's a lot of people who are marginalized and traumatized. 

Meg:
Can you talk a little bit more about depression and anxiety, either together or separate, and what this looks like for Autistic folks? 

Matt:
Ah, well. So, back when I worked in community mental health, which was a really rough lifetime ago, I was told by a neurotypical supervisor that I was not able to diagnose both autism and depression, or autism and anxiety, because, quote, "People with ASD are traumatized, are depressed and anxious all the time." And I was like, "Thanks, Melissa. It's because of people like you." And so, this is the thing. With allistic people, depression and anxiety is often due to either intermittent life circumstances that can be changed — you know, difficulty at a job, difficulty in a relationship, what have you — or of a lack of neurotransmitters like dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, possibly GABA. 

But for Autistic people, anxiety is largely due to a thing that we call expectation sensitivity and expectation sensitivity dysphoria, because we are constantly calculating all of the data in all of the variables forever, always. We're essentially trying to plan where the hurricane is going to hit based on all of the available information at the time. But if anyone's seen Jurassic Park, chaos theory always intervenes, so we can never have an accurate picture of how things are going to go. We just have to clean up the mess afterwards. 

And with depression, it often comes from a sense of learned helplessness, in that we are never, ever going to solve that equation, we are never going to be fully understood by the people around us, and we are never going to get our needs fully met. And there's a sense of incredible loneliness out there because of that, especially because we are dissuaded from being weird in public. We often have to mask or camouflage in order to be accepted by neurotypical peers. And if we don't see anyone else around like us, we internalize that and believe that we are indeed alone. And that can be really, really damaging, which is one of the reason our suicide rate is so high. 

Meg:
Yeah. So, it sounds like one of the really important pieces fpor us who are providers but not necessarily mental health providers, like OTs, SLPs, teachers, all of us, to think about for our Autistic clients, students, kids, adults who are also depressed is the need for authentic inclusion. We know it's a survival need to feel like you, as your whole self, are included. What else would you say for Autistic folks who are depressed or also anxious, what other things are supportive, and what things do we want to avoid? 

Matt:
Man, well, the biggest thing is accepting and a place for belonging, a community. And this is, since the last time I saw you on Two Sides of the Spectrum, I have developed Autistic-centered therapy. And one of the big parts about that is Autistic interpersonal therapy, where you relearn to relate to people in a more authentic, Autistic way. And since so many people have tried to bury that in the pursuit of the mythical 'normal', it can be a really rough time relearning who you really are. 

I find that a lot of parents sort of bury that until they have neurodivergent kids, and then they say, "Oh, that's who I was before the world crushed me." And that's a really good starting place because either, a) you pass on that internalized ableism to your child because you say, "I had to bend to fit into the world, so therefore my child must, too"; or you say, "Man, I really hate that I was forced to fit in. I don't want my child to have to go through that." And that's where the direction that I went in because I want to help people find communities where they can fit in so that they can take the mask off and feel like they belong, so that it's easier to temporarily mask in other situations. If you know that you're not the problem, it's easier to say, "Oh, yes, I will use a British accent about an hour today." And it's not as bad as trying to be British 24/7. 

Meg:
Yeah. Yeah. What about for folks who are struggling with anxiety? 

Matt:
Oh, man. Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's the thing. It's really difficult if you are Autistic, and you've got the expectation sensitivity, and you need to know how everything is going to go all the time, forever, always. And again, for instance, like with my son, he definitely has the expectation sensitivity, but that's one of the reasons that he's gotten into analog clocks. He builds analog clocks for fun, and he's able to — he has a calendar on his AAC device where he can look and see when he's at my house, when he's at his mother's house, when we will have weekends, when we will have breaks, when we will go see the Weird Al Yankovic concert. He knows what to expect at all times. 

And when he looks at the clock, he knows that he will get here at 2:30, we will eat at 4:00, he will take a shower at 6:00. He knows what to expect and when to expect it. So, therefore, if there is something that pops up, for instance, like if his therapist couldn't see him one day, we have started to use the phrase, "That was unexpected." And it can be very, very discouraging to have things that are unexpected, but at least we now have a way of communicating the extreme distress that comes with a change in plans. Because we Autistic people are not great at transitions or the unexpected change unless we involve it. And that's, from what I hear, is a unique situation for AuDHD people because you crave that novelty, but, at the same time, it can be very distressing if someone else initiates that change. And from what I hear, that's a very tough situation to be in. 

Meg:
Yeah. But that's so validating, saying, "That was unexpected." And when you say that, you know that's a big experience for your kid, having something that's unexpected, and you're making space for him to have that reaction. And you are expecting that this unexpected thing is gonna be tricky and hard for him, and making space for that. The thing that I'm thinking of as you're talking is how unhelpful it is to think of Autistic people as a monolith. Like, I remember coming out of OT school being like, "Autistic people need structure and routine." And then, I started trying to support PDA-ers and AuDHD-ers, and I didn't have all of the language or the right curiosity to understand, what is it that you need? Do you need novelty in this moment? Do you need autonomy? Do you need predictability? Being able to understand all of the parts of a kid is so helpful in knowing, is this distressing? Is this boring? What is going on? 

Matt:
And that's the old saying that if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism. And that's the unique thing about the lack of synaptic pruning because when — I use the example of if you have two trees, they're naturally going to look very different. But if you trim the same areas in both trees, they're going to look similar. And that's why the neurotypical brain is typical, that the same areas have been weeded out. And the theory is that it's more efficient that way, citation needed. 

But the reality is that for ADHD people, AuDHD people, and Autistic people, because of our lack of synaptic pruning, our brains are wildly different. And you have no idea what the internal world of any person looks like until you get more into the woods with that — into the weeds — and learn about their sensory preferences, their coping mechanisms, what helps them feel secure. Because, especially for a PDA kid, to outsiders, PDA looks like defiance because they don't understand it. On the inside, it's an anxiety spike. And everybody needs something different to alleviate the anxiety, whether it's body doubling, or a secure environment, or a lack of sensory input or whatever. But you don't know until you get in there, and you find what works for that particular person. 

Meg:
Yeah. Okay. So, we've started talking about AuDHD, and we've started talking about PDA, and I wanna zoom in on both of those. We do have a lot of interviews coming up about ADHD and AuDHD, which is our Autistic folks who also have ADHD, and everyone seems to have something different to add to this conversation. So, I wanna start by getting your perspective. What does AuDHD look like, and what types of supports are helpful? 

Matt:
So, I explained this the other day. I am the last remaining person in Kentucky who is both Autistic and does autism testing. Everybody else burned out. But I also do ADHD testing, and I explained it to one person as saying, "If autism is the color blue and ADHD is the color yellow, AuDHD is the color green. It's not bluish yellow. It's not yellowish blue. It's a completely different color." And when you look at this, you have to understand that it's not like you turn to your autism side, you turn to your ADHD side. Granted, if you have medications that work to help the ADHD, to help with the variable focus, then more Autistic traits may pop up. If you have your Autistic side, if you've got excellent structures, then you may feel more freedom to have the variable focus. 

But at the same time, the underlying issues are very, very different than either condition. And this is one thing that I think that a lot of people don't understand because, again, up until 2013, we couldn't diagnose both autism and ADHD in the same person. So, we've really only been doing this for 13 years. This is a brand-new category that we are just now starting to experience, and that leads into a lot of confusion as to who out there is AuDHD, why AuDHD occurs. Again, it's both ADHD and autism are due to a lack of synaptic pruning. But why is — is AuDHD the core condition that can manifest as ADHD classic or autism classic? Is it just there? We don't know. There's so much research that we need to do because we've only been doing this for 13 years, and it's been six years since COVID. So, we really only had a good, like, two or three years of research in there before everything went crazy. 

Meg:
So interesting, yeah. And I know for some AuDHD-ers, the line between being ADHD and AuDHD is very subtle. It's like, oh, that's an AuDHD-er with so many Autistic traits who also doesn't fit the criteria to be identified as Autistic. 

Matt:
Exactly. And that's the thing that I find to be both fascinating and horrifying because unless you go to somebody who understands these presentations, you might not get a diagnosis because there are so many people out there who are under the impression that they know these classic traits. But if they say, "Ah, yeah, well, you don't fit that and you don't fit that, clearly you must be something else, some mythical other thing that I don't know what it is, so I don't feel comfortable giving you that label." And if you don't have that label, you don't have the means to do the research, you don't have to get the means to the communities or the identity or anything else, and it could be years before you find what works for you. 

And we need much, much more research and understanding and awareness as opposed to just the textbook definitions that we have for both ADHD and autism. And we need more clinicians who are interested in learning because I know for a fact that my reports today are better than my reports from five years ago, and my reports five years from now will make my reports today look like crap, because I am fascinated and I want to continually learn everything I can about autism and ADHD. And I have been identified as autism classic, but at the same time, I drink a tankard of caffeine every day. So, draw your own conclusions.

Meg:
Right? Yeah. Well, shout out to people listening, 'cause I think they are the people you are describing, the folks who are like, "What else can I learn to do better by my clients?" We have a lot of interesting conversations about AuDHD coming up on the podcast, so for folks who are really wanting more, stay tuned and circle back 'cause we're gonna do more. Before we wrap up, there's so many directions I could go here, but the last thing I wanna really talk about — 

Matt:
[Laughs] Said the ADHD person. Excellent. I like that. 

Meg:
Do you have all day, Matt? Can we follow every rabbit hole? He really does have a very, very large mug of coffee. 

Matt:
Yes, yes. Potentially dangerous levels of caffeine.

Meg:
It might be the camera angle, but it looks bigger than your head. 

Matt:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it may very well be. It is, yeah, it is a good chunk of caffeine, like, half a pot of coffee right here, 'cause that way I don't have to keep getting up even though getting up is exactly what I need after that much caffeine, so. 

Meg:
No judgment. I have a coffee maker on my bedside table. 

Matt:
There you go. 

Meg:
I don't have to get up for coffee. All right. The last thing I want to ask you about is PDA. How would you describe the experience of being Autistic and PDA, and what's affirming for these folks? 

Matt:
Oh, yeah. So, PDA is one of those things that, number one, I did not learn about when I was in school. Because, once again, when I was in therapy school, you spent maybe a week on autism, maybe two weeks on ADHD, and literally everything else was a footnote. And I didn't realize that I was PDA until a few years ago. Because, once again, everybody describes PDA as, quote-unquote, 'pathological demand avoidance'. A better label would be reframing it as 'persistent drive for autonomy', but even then, it doesn't describe the anxiety spike that comes along with the PDA. Because the anxiety spike, I describe it as a gremlin that lives in your brain, and sometimes the gremlin is appeased and you're able to get to the control panel, but sometimes the gremlin will not allow you to get to that control panel and nothing will be done. 

But at the same time, I also think that there's a lot of people out there who have pathological demand compliance, because, especially if you go — so, all ADHD people and Autistic people tend to be bottom-up socializers. We tend to have much more of an egalitarian approach and say, "Yes, the librarian is my best friend," instead of saying, "That person who is older than me is clearly my superior. I will do everything that superior says." We don't do that. We do not tend to just blindly follow orders, which in this world, I think is a benefit. But yeah, but the PDA comes in when stuff triggers that anxiety spike and you're like, "Nope, I won't be doing that." 

And this is one reason why I'm coming at you from my living room rather than an office, because I moved to this new house in 2024, and there are some days when the gremlin in my brain allows me to work on the basement and make it a good place, and there are some days when I am not allowed to do that. So, it is taking an extended period of time to shape my basement in order to make it into the office space that I need, want, and want to show off. But stuff that is really, you know, problematic, like taxes, I filed my taxes exactly two days after the deadline and paid the $28 fee because I was like, "I will not be doing that." I have to. I will not! But I have to. I eventually did it and paid the fee. I paid the PDA tax. So, that can be a problem for us. 

But when you see your kids and you say, "Can you clean your room?" They say, "No, I cannot." "Well, why can't you?" "The gremlin won't let me." Well, and but the way to get around this is by co-regulation, by equalizing, by getting on the same level. When I meet people in person, I sit on the floor, so kids have to look down at me. And if they want to get on my level, they also have to get on the ground. So, if a kid is looking down on me, it's a shift — I also don't wear neckties or fancy suits or anything to show that I'm better than others. So, it really, really helps equalize all of that, and kids are more likely to listen to me. 

And adults, if I come in dressed as I am in a black T-shirt and cargo shorts, they're more likely to listen to me than if I dressed in a suit and tie and said, "I know everything that there is to know, and you must do everything that I say." And they say, "No, I won't do that." But again, I'm a bottom-up socializer, and I see that as, quote-unquote, "normal" and the right way to do things. So, it helps me relate to my people in a better way, and it helps me — it helps me help them. And I recommend — 

Meg:
You're keeping them out of freeze, right? 

Matt:
Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Because that's the thing, that anxiety spike can be debilitating. Okay. So, autism and ADHD are inherited. You can track this. You never find a kid without finding at least one parent, right? So, if you're dealing with a PDA child, you're probably dealing with a PDA adult. And if you're dealing with — and we have what we call the hedgehog's dilemma. If a hedgehog bristles their spikes and the other hedgehog bristles their spikes and they poke each other, then there's gonna be problems. But if you get both hedgehogs nice and calm, they're both nice and cuddly, and they're able to work together. 

And you have to model that. You have to show that. You have to get everybody's amygdalae to calm down in order to have the family work together. And, you gotta be able to model that and show that it is possible. And again, people who believe in social hierarchies in this whole, you know, "I am better than you because I have multiple degrees and a necktie," that does not often work well. That becomes a battle of will that can become debilitating for the client, and you don't want that. Well, I don't want that. I'm not gonna speak for them, but if that's the, quote-unquote, "treatment protocol", you should probably find a new treatment person. 

Meg:
Yeah. Yeah, I think the good news here with all of this that's so complex is that the more people have the experience of feeling listened to and that their internal experience is cared for, the more they're gonna have access to their own insight and share it with us, right? Like, I was just thinking about I interview a lot of PDA-ers. And I have folks say, "Please don't send me the questions in advance. Then it will feel like a demand and I won't answer them." And I have other folks who I send the questions in advance, and I say, "Erase all the ones you don't like." And they say, "Thank you so much. There's three left." And I'm like, perfect, right? 

And, it's not, "Oh, here's how you interview a PDA-er. You have to follow this protocol and do it one way." It's actually being responsive and making sure people trust you to meet them where they are. And the same is true with anybody, that we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna make missteps, we're gonna think, "Oh, this AuDHD-er might be struggling with this because they need novelty." We add novelty, and now they're more stressed because there's an Autistic child in front of us who is actually craving routine. We repair, we show we care about it, and we keep trying together with them, right? It's not about knowing everything in advance. 

Matt:
Interacting with other humans and, you know, adapting as needed. What a mysterious concept. That's wonderful, yes. 

Meg:
Well, it's like when we became professionals, some of us got the message, myself included, that we were supposed to know what we were doing. 

Matt:
And never — and this is the biggest problem of all because that hierarchy, that belief that the people know everything because they're a professional, this is the greatest impediment towards people getting the care that we need, and learning, and growing. Because that hierarchy, the resistance to grow, that resistance to say, "Perhaps I don't know everything, and perhaps I should keep learning." Oh, man, I don't understand it, but man. On our podcast, The Autistic VOICE Project, we had Dr. Stacy Greeter, who's an AuDHD psychiatrist. She's in Florida. And she was talking about the double empathy problem, which I'm guessing that your listeners have talked about a lot. 

Meg:
Yes. Yeah.  

Matt:
But there's the triple empathy problem, where you have a neurotypical professional who is completely unwilling to listen to their neurodivergent clients because they know everything and they're not willing to learn, and that causes massive, massive problems. And if everybody was as open to learning and understanding and growing, I think that the world would be a much better place because we would have so much more awareness, and understanding, and kindness to each other that we could solve a lot of problems. 

Meg:
Yeah, I agree. I think that's a really good reminder to folks, especially newer providers who are feeling that performance anxiety, just the need to prove ourselves, that this professional hierarchy that has been taught to us does more harm than good. And that when we approach as people with skills and tools, but the ones at the forefront are curiosity, and care, and compassion, not expertise, right? 

Matt:
Yes. Einstein once said that, "Imagination is more important than knowledge," and curiosity beats everything. Because if you have the curiosity, you're going to get out there, and you're going to research, and you're going to find more answers. And that's how we really become the top of our field, because we are open to learning new things at all times instead of just stagnating. 

Meg:
I love that. I love that. I love that that's really the core message of this podcast interview. And I have to add, when you were talking about people who don't see social hierarchy, all I could think about was my two neurodivergent children who very much see each person as an equally interesting, valid, worthy person. But they have, on their own — I've never made them write a thank you note to anyone — they always write a thank you note to the receptionist. Like, when we go to the doctor's appointment, they'll be like, "Wait, that nice lady who got all of our information, I drew a picture for her," and they need to go back to the receptionist to deliver the thank you note. And I was just like, I love this. That person is invisible to so many people. We're thanking the doctor or whatever, but they're like, "What about that really kind lady who took our insurance card?" And my brain missed it. 

Matt:
That's really cool. 

Meg:
Yeah. It's so cool. It's so cool. And yeah, that person is more exciting to them than somebody who's maybe supposed to be important, because they were kind. So, I just hope we can keep nurturing the things about our Autistic, AuDHD, PDA, OCD, twice exceptional, whatever it is, the unique things about them are an important part of who they are. I hope we can keep nurturing those. 

Matt:
Yeah. The neurodiversity makes the world go round. We need people of all types. Yes. 

Meg:
Yes. Anything you want to bring us back to or add before we wrap up? 

Matt:
Oh, man. Yeah, it's a big world out there, and stay curious. Keep learning. And that's why podcasts like this are important because anybody who's currently listening to this podcast is doing so to learn more things, and that is awesome. 

Meg:
Yes. All right. Where can we find you and your work and your podcast online? 

Matt:
Well, I currently do The Autistic VOICE project, where VOICE stands for Validating Our Identity Culture and Experiences, 'cause I love a good acronym. That's on Spotify, iTunes, wherever fine podcasts are sold. My website is mattlowrylpp.com, as in licensed psychological professional. But honestly, if you search for 'Matt Lowry' of just about any spelling and 'autism', I pop up. So, I also teach at The Chicago School. We talk about autism across the lifespan right now. So, it is fascinating, and I encourage people to stay curious and keep learning. 

Meg:
Awesome. I feel so seen. I feel like I have found your website by searching for your name with different spellings plus the word 'autism' repeatedly, so I can verify that it works. 

Matt:
Yeah, Google's super flexible with me, so here we are.

Meg:
All right. I'll link to all of that in the show notes, and hopefully we can chat again in the very near future. Thank you so much, Matt. 

Matt:
My pleasure. Have a good one.