Episode 94
Interview between Speaker 1 (Meg) and Speaker 2 (Heather Clarke)
Episode 94: Cultivating Freedom and Authenticity in Daily Life Through Culturally-Affirming Practices
[Introductory note]
Hey, it’s Meg. If you love this podcast and you are a professional supporting Autistic people, this is your moment to check out the Learn Play Thrive Education Hub at learnplaythrive.com/trainings. We have three free Masterclasses and a whole catalogue of neurodiversity-affirming, on-demand continuing education courses, including a brand-new course on trauma-informed practices for Autistic people. We also have an annual continuing education summit with an incredible panel of speakers. All of our courses are registered with AOTA and ASHA for CEU’s, and many are registered with NASP for school psychologists and ASWB for social workers. Check it out and get your continuing education credit in a way that’s truly meaningful and aligned with your values — learnplaythrive.com/trainings.
[Introductory music]
Welcome to the Two Sides of the Spectrum Podcast. A place where we explore research, amplify Autistic voices, and change the way we think about autism in life, and in our professional therapy practices. I’m Meg Ferrell, formerly Meg Proctor, from learnplaythrive.com broadcasting to you today from unceded Tsalagi territory.
Meg:
Welcome to Episode 94 with Heather Clarke. I love this conversation so much. Heather has an eye for what joyful, authentic participation could look like for all kids. She has a deep analysis of the barriers that exist to that, especially for multiply marginalized kids, and a vision for how we can begin moving towards making our spaces more inclusive and supportive for our Autistic and disabled clients and community members.
I’ll tell you about our guest, Heather Clarke. She’s a Black Autistic woman with an invisible disability and a chronic illness. She’s also a mother of two small children. Heather has over 20 years of experience working as a teacher and in the field of educational justice and policy. She is an instructional consultant at the New York University Metropolitan Centre for Research on equity and the transformation of schools, and has been an adjunct professor and field mentor at New York University in the early childhood special education departments.
Through Heather’s business, The Learning Advocate, she consults with parents and caregivers, and educators, businesses, and organizations on issues around racial equity and disability justice. Heather has an incredibly impressive set of accolades and places that her writing has been featured. So, make sure to check out her work in the show notes. Here’s the interview with Heather Clarke.
Hi, Heather. Welcome to the podcast.
Heather:
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Meg:
I’m really excited to sit down and talk to you. And I want to start like we often do with your story. Can you tell us about the work you do, and your journey to this point in your work?
Heather:
I want to keep it concise, as concise as I can. I feel like I wear many hats. I guess because I do. I’m a Black Autistic woman, I also have some chronic conditions, chronic illnesses or disabilities that I deal with as well. I have been working in the field of education for a very long time in New York City for 20 years; a classroom teacher, an advocate, a parent advocate, helping other parents, also working with my own children, disability advocate, cultural competency. Also, I’ve worked internationally. I would say that I kind of got into it because I had no choice. Like, just my own experiences growing up, I wanted to be in a place and have a place for children that went through experiences like mine, that they didn’t feel like the way I did in school. And the more that I saw in the schooling system, either here or if I was in a different place, that I really wanted to change it and really dismantle the anti-Blackness, particularly, and how that intersected with ableism and other -isms that I saw and experienced, I experienced myself, to change that. I mean, there’s so much more that I can get into about my personal story, but just for the sake of time, I would say that that’s really how I got into it. I’ve been doing this for a long time.
Meg:
Yeah. And so many of us are grateful to you and the work that you’re doing. Heather, a lot of providers who listen to this podcast are supporting families of Autistic kids and otherwise disabled kids, and are often supporting multiply marginalized kids and their families. And I know that in your work, you have experienced as a parent to your own children, and you’ve supported so many families and advocated for so many families. And one thing you sometimes talk about is the various roles that parents and caregivers take on for their disabled kids. Can you expand on that a little bit?
Heather:
Yeah, I would love to. So, I think that sometimes what happens with specialists is that there is — I don’t know, it’s almost like a White Coat Syndrome type of thing where they feel like they are the experts and the parents, especially when there’s a cultural disconnect, that the other parents — and I see this a lot in the work that I do, particularly advocating for Black and Brown parents, parents that don’t speak English, because I’m bilingual in Spanish — that they don’t know what they’re talking about. I have worked with so many Black parents and non-white Latino, Latina families that have gone again, and again, and again, trying to get that Autistic diagnosis for their children. And the pediatrician was like, “You don’t know what you’re talking about, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” Or they’re going to the school trying to get services and they’re like, “Oh, well, the kid just doesn’t speak English,” or, “The kid doesn’t speak English well,” or because the child is using African American dialect, the speech-language pathologist is saying certain languages, certain ways the child is communicating is wrong. Or the way the child is playing a game is wrong because a child doesn’t want to play a game that’s competitive, they want to play something that’s community oriented. Because that’s how our culture is, we’re very community-oriented interdependence, as opposed to hyperindependence.
And so, I think that the disconnect is the lack of understanding that in these other cultures, we are our child’s first teachers, first therapists, and advocates, and that we do bring a wealth of knowledge. In some of the courses that I’ve taught as an adjunct professor, is I’ve used an example of a Chinese immigrant family, because I used to do ESL, early intervention, in Chinatown in Manhattan, where, you know, a Chinese mother who was Fujianese-speaking, was trying to get the services for her child. And time and time again, they were saying, “Well, it’s just because he didn’t speak English,” but she knew something was wrong. And the doctor was just discounting her knowledge, but she knew her kid best. And so, I just, I would like providers to understand that parents really do know their child best when they’re coming in, they’re saying, “I noticed there’s something a little bit different here,” or, “I’m noticing these behaviors,” or, “This is what my child really enjoys, or this is something that my child really dislikes.” Please, listen. Does that make sense?
Meg:
Absolutely. And that’s such important advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. One of the things you said when I asked you about your story was that you have felt like you had to and were driven to try and dismantle so many of the -isms you see in front of you and in front of the families you support. I want to go through some of those. One that you have spoken about is childism, the idea that children are not respected as full human beings. Can you talk about how this shows up in schools or in any context, and what we could be doing differently?
Heather:
And I just want to say, I understand. I understand the constraints that therapists and teachers are under because I was a classroom teacher for a long time in the countries larger school districts. And I understand that the restrictions put upon us as education and school staff professionals are unrealistic and overwhelming. But we expect more from children than we expect from adults, right? Like, they’re supposed to go, you know, they’re supposed to ask to go to the bathroom, they’re supposed to ask to go to get a drink of water, they’re supposed to wait to eat, there’s so many things. They’re really not seen as full human beings.
Yet, at the same time, they’re expected to have a level of maturity and understanding that we don’t, in terms of their bodily functions and other things, that are just we don’t expect from adults in the workplace. You know, it’s just interesting to me that the way we talk to children, the way we value children in our society in the United States — I don’t know if all your listeners are in the United States, so I don’t want to come across as too US-centric. But having lived in different countries and having family in different countries, my dad side is in the Caribbean, just seeing how little we value children’s life, you know, and the safe space of childhood. Like, they’re supposed to be here, you know, at school, at a table, at a desk with no allowance for self-expression, for movement for, you know, this arbitrary development that was based on small sample sizes in Europe, on white men. And if they deviate any little bit, then they are wrong.
It’s just, you know, no one is questioning that, is countering that. It just strikes me as ridiculous. And then, when we say anything, it’s like, you’re a troublemaker, you’re a problem. Those kids are a problem. And they must be squished down to this little box. And it’s very, it’s dehumanizing to children. We do not see them as fully actualized human beings. And that is essentially what childish is.
Meg:
Thank you for sharing that some of our most popular episodes and continuing education offerings have been on PDA. And it’s interesting to watch how the strategies to support kids with a PDA profile are often increasing autonomy and reducing the demands. And increasingly, I’m hearing people say, “My clients aren’t PDA and these strategies are helping me with everyone.” And I think that really ties in to what you’re saying about how kids have so few opportunities to exist in their bodies with their needs, and their wants, and authentically in their childhood. And sometimes, the most important thing we can do is come back to their autonomy and their full humaneness. What does it look like to push back against that a little bit, especially for people and settings as rigid as schools?
Heather:
I think what’s — one of the schools that I’ve seen it done so well is embedding cultural competency in the classroom. Understanding the culture and having that inter, that interdependency, right, really having that interdependency with autonomy, and interconnectedness. I think that there’s a misconception that hyperindependence is the same thing as autonomy when it’s not. This idea of bootstrap, which is garbage, and hyperindependence is not the same thing as choice and autonomy. This idea that kindergarteners are supposed to come in at five and six, five, some of them come in, in New York City, you can have kindergarteners who are four, right? They don’t turn five until December, some of them.
And they’re supposed to come in and know how to tie their shirt, tie their shoes, then, you know, put on their winter coats, 25 of them in a classroom all by themselves. That’s how it was for me when I taught kindergarten. They’re having to be able to read and write papers by the end of kindergarten, read books on their own, write papers on their own, handle all these, you know, folders, whatever, all by their own, because you’re a big boy, you’re a big girl, you’re in kindergarten now. Yet, I’m telling you, “You can’t get water right now, even though you’re thirsty because we’re in the middle of lesson”, “No, you cannot go to the bathroom right now, we’re in the middle of the lesson”, “No, it’s not playtime right now, but you have to do this and this and this because you’re a big boy and big girl.” Even though you’re telling me — that is not actual, like, you know what I’m saying? And I think that somehow we’ve got it all confused.
So, where I’ve seen it accomplished, I’ve see that accomplished, where it’s like, you can be your authentic joy. Like, you’re excited because you’re getting up to share something at the board and you’re dancing on your way. That’s amazing. Not, “You better walk because there’s no dancing or skipping on the way to the board. Oh, you’re gonna code switch and talk in Spanish with your friend? No, it’s not Spanish time. Today is not Spanish time, today’s English time.” Because, you know, there’s dual language classes. So, you know, they’re very strict. Which day’s English, which day’s the Spanish. No. Code switching, that’s fine. Oh, you’re going to help, you’re going to work on this project together. You’re going to get up, oh, you know, you’re swinging back and forth while you’re doing your math, because that’s how you do your math out of your seat, swinging back and forth? That’s fine. Oh, you’re gonna go over there and get some manipulatives? Oh, now you’re at the cozy corner? Like, that kind of, that’s where I’ve seen it, like, work and be really happy, you know.
They say what they need and they’re able to do it, and there’s a natural flow state and, you know, yes, the teacher’s still are directing the instruction. And like, yes, it’s not time now, we’re slowly transitioning into literacy. And there’s priming, and there’s a schedule. But there’s still, like, interconnectedness, interdependence, and choice and autonomy, if that makes sense. So, I do believe that can be accomplished. There has to be a lot of work done at the beginning of the year to set that community up, set that environment up. But it can happen.
Meg:
I love those examples, because they are very attainable. And it’s like, there’s this moment of pause in between what the child does or says or asks for, and how the adult responds, where we stop and ask ourselves, “Why am I about to say ‘No’ to that?”
Heather:
Exactly.
Meg:
Do I need to be saying ‘No’, or can I say ‘Yes’. Yeah.
Heather:
And I think as parents, for the parents who are listening, too, like, we also have to unlearn it. Like, so if a kid is bringing a car to the table while eating dinner, why is that a problem? If a kid is building LEGOs while eating breakfast, why is that a problem? Like, you’re in your own home, and they’re building LEGOs. As long as you’re eating, why is that a problem? No toys at the table. Why? Why is it the hill you’re going to die on?
Meg:
That’s an interesting example. Because in my early training for feeding therapy, as an OT, we were taught to teach families that specific rule. So, sometimes the rigid ‘Yes’ or the ‘No’ is coming from their providers. And there’s this power differential, right, that it’s hard to push back. I’ve often seen, I think back to my early years of being an OT, and trying to be very authoritative, because I didn’t know what I was doing. And families would kind of nod at me blankly. And I knew they didn’t, that my ideas weren’t sitting right. But I didn’t know how to arrive at real communication, often, even with my best parent coaching questions or caregiver coaching questions. And I think often there is this disconnect between the ideas that providers are bringing in and what actually works for the family or for the child. Sometimes we’re the ones with the ‘No’.
I’ll tell you a funny story, Heather. When I was in my early 20s, I taught public school high school for one year. And I had the same practice there of, can I say ‘Yes’? Can I say ‘Yes’ to this? Why am I saying ‘No’? And it was final exams, and they finished their exam and said, “Can we run on the football field? We’ve been sitting all day, and it’s gorgeous outside.” And I said, “Yes. I love this idea.” I got in so much trouble. Because you’re not allowed to run on the football field during exams apparently in high schools. There’s some very important rule about the validity of the test and where everyone is. So, it’s such a tight rope for people to walk between saying ‘Yes’ and not getting in trouble.
Heather:
Right. Of course, of course. Yeah. I mean, they don’t allow the kids to have recess during state tests here in New York City. It’s terrible.
Meg:
That’s terrible.
Heather:
And it’s like, the one thing that they need, and I’m sure it would actually increase test scores. But you know, we’ll continue to fail upwards.
Meg:
Yeah. And how much can we push back and risk getting in trouble and take it, take it on behalf of our kids? Somebody — who was it, I think I just keep quoting Gillian Boudreau. When I was talking to Gillian in our most recent Summit and asking a question that was similar. She said, “Well, you just have to choose who you’re gonna let down. Are you going to let down these kindergarteners who need to move their bodies? Or are you going to let down the principal and see it as an explicit choice?” And I loved that advice.
Heather:
I mean, yeah, I mean, I’m more likely to quote Angela Davis or Audre Lorde and just have a, you know, and just start a revolution. And also, you can always opt out of tests. I’ve opted out of tests for my own kids. There’s no — I mean, a lot of those state tests, you can just opt out as parents.
Meg:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s good to know. Okay, I want to move on to the next -ism that I want to ask you about, or this one’s a -ification. You’ve spoken about adultification, particularly for kids of color. Can you talk about why this is dangerous? And how that can show up, especially in schools?
Heather:
So, I want to just be very specific, because it’s not for kids of color. It’s for Black kids. And Black is not a dirty word. So, I just want to be really clear. It’s not happening to Asian kids. It’s not happening to Pacific Islander kids. I mean, in terms of studies, whatever, and so who it’s harming the most, it’s happening to Black kids. And Black is not a dirty word. So, when we’re talking about people of color, you know, we’re not all one of the same. So, we want to be really specific we talk about like, Black. And that’s why I’m always very specific when I talk about anti-Black racism, because it is different. And other groups of color can be anti-Black racist.
So, anyway, so yeah, so I think the reason why I talk about this specifically is because we know, if you’re doing the research like I am, that kids with disabilities are being expelled, disciplined, and suspended at a higher rate than their non-disabled peers. And when we’re talking about kids with disabilities, I mean specifically kids with IEP’s. And I was actually recently in an education summit in Canada. And that extends to kids in Canada as well. So, that’s in the US and Canada. When we draw it down by racial demographics, it’s specifically happening to Black kids. And we’re looking at Black boys and Black girls. And we are seeing studies that show that Black boys are being perceived as older than they actually are by age, and Black girls.
And what’s particularly alarming is that Black girls as young as like five years of age are being given harsher punishments than their white peers, and are seen as less worthy of sympathy and care than their white peers of the same age. And so, this is where the adultification bias comes in. Because they are literally, you know, we’ve had incidences where Black girls with disabilities have been, like, stripped searched, have been arrested, handcuffed. I’ve worked personally with families in New York City, where five-year-old, six-year-old girls have been handcuffed with IEP’s. But it’s happened in Florida, where a five-year-old girl was handcuffed, a girl with a disability who was an ADHD-er was handcuffed. And we’re talking about, you know, children who’ve been killed by police. So, this is a very, very big issue.
And places like Canada, it looks a little different because of the First Nations population there were the First Nations population is, with disabilities, is going through the same type of statistics. But in the US, we’re specifically looking at that. And so, it’s something that really, it is life threatening for our Black children with disabilities, this adultification bias. It’s really hard for me to talk about because we’re talking about Black children with disabilities. So, the most marginalized children who, when they are encountered with a police interaction, their life is being put at risk.
Meg:
Yeah, I think there’s no excuse for having police officers in schools.
Heather:
No, not. But even if a child is like walking down the street or doing, engaging in something, we’ve had, you know, two very recent situations where Black Autistic youth and children have been shot and killed by police.
Meg:
Yeah. So, when we’re thinking about what providers can do, we need to be watching what the — I hear they’re called school resource officers.
Heather:
That’s what they’re called in New York, too.
Meg:
Schools are doing, I remember advocating for a Black Autistic second grader who the school resource officer was physically picking up and moving. And they’re not bound to the same rules about restraint, and physical force, and any of the guidelines that the rest of the school staff are. And like you said, lives are on the line. So, I think one thing that that those of us who are in the schools can be doing is trying to get cops out of schools, and while they’re still there, we need to be watching and advocating for our Black students.
Heather:
Yeah. And then, another added complexity when it comes to our marginalized gendered, Black, disabled students, girls, non-gender conforming trans students, is the sexual harassment, you know, other piece where Black girls were literally stripped searched for laughing too loudly. You know, I’ve met so many things. It’s just, it’s, you know, it’s very personal to me because I know what I experienced as a Black girl, and I was sexually harassed in school by a teacher, and no one helped me. So, it’s very, it’s really traumatizing for me every time these things come up, but I’m committed to speak out about it at any moment and, you know, really advocate to get police out of schools and in New York City state get the Solutions Not Suspensions Act passed, and then hopefully take that on at a federal level.
Meg:
Thank you. And we’ll link to resources about that in the show notes as well. Can you talk a little bit more about how you see ableism and anti-Blackness intersecting in schools and sort of acting together?
Heather:
Yeah. I mean, I know I sound like a broken record. But I don’t think that they can be separated because I believe that ableism comes from anti-Blackness, because it all stems back from chattel enslavement when you had terms like dysautonomia and this idea that Black people were mentally ill for wanting freedom. And that Black people were mentally ill for living in communities as free Black people. And that, those were things that came out of chattel enslavement, but that so-called legitimate psychiatrists came up as terms for Black people. And so, this idea that Black people were mentally ill for running away from enslavement. And then, Black people were lazy and mentally ill for living in communities as free Black people, and that has permeated our mental psyche.
And then, in the civil rights movement, when Black people were advocating and fighting for civil rights, more and more Black people were classified, again, under psychiatry, myths, you know, wrongly classified as schizophrenic. And this is all like clear evidence. And so, you see this whole idea, tapping into this, you know, now, as Black students, particularly Black boys, but Black girls, too, as because you look at the statistics, more Black girls are being suspended and expelled from schools right now than Black male children for non-compliance, ODD — oppositional defiant disorder — again, non-compliance, emotional disturbed disorder.
And so, we know that those types of classifications on an IEP are basically a straight line to prison. And so, all of this is intertwined with ableism. And like, that anti-Blackness is intertwined with ableism. So, when I’m advocating for a family, and I see that that’s what they’re going to list, and I’m like, nope, we’re not doing that. We’re not doing that. Where’s the proof? Those are not even clear. And so, we are, you know, working together with families in New York State to say, why are so many Black children given the ODD and EDD classification on IEP’s? And we have the evidence to show how this is connected straight back to these diagnoses from enslavement times.
Meg:
I appreciate you tracing that back. I think a lot of listeners of the podcast are willing to look at the roots of behaviorism. And, you know, look back at Lovaas and say this is where it started.
Heather:
It started way before that.
Meg:
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Do you want to say more about that?
Heather:
Well, I mean, it’s just, Lovaas is from this century. But it started way before that. It started way back during chattel enslavement.
Meg:
Yeah. Oh, what I was gonna say is if we’re willing to look at the roots of ABA and say this is where ABA came from, let’s question it because of its roots. And we need to also be willing to say, hey, this belief traces back to enslavement, the modern workforce traces back to slave catchers. If we look at these things as neutral, we’re missing so many opportunities to really have a critical eye, what are the intentions and how is it permeating our beliefs today?
Heather:
And where does behaviorism, the idea of behaviorism come from? And shaping behavior, right? I mean, we know Lovaas was a gay conversion therapist, and we know that Pavlov did horrible things to children. Let’s look even at child development and the incorrect small sample size on white males, okay. And but where does it all come from? And preformationism, this idea that human children, white children, were preformed in an egg or a sperm as preformed adults. Let’s go all the way right back and think about the feudal system, and even how sheriffs in Europe, the policing system in Europe, was all about serfs and bringing serfs back to work the land for the Lord, right. Like, look back on that and that whole thing, and how then that was transferred in the colonial states. Like it’s all connected to that, and chattel enslavement.
Meg:
Thank you so much. I will — I know that there’s probably some listeners who want to go deeper into that. And I do, too. So, we’ll put some resources in the show notes as well; I appreciate those deeper historical connections. For folks who are working, let’s say in the schools, what are some things that you’re starting to see in terms of culturally responsive practice? And what would you like to see moving forward?
Heather:
Well, I would like to see everybody get rid of Moms for Liberty, because they’re super dangerous. I’m going to just be honest; they are a virus that’s taking over everywhere, they’re even in New York City. And I’ve had some very nasty interactions with them, where they’ve come after me. So, that’s another reason why I don’t put my, anything with my children there. They are attacking Black history, they are attacking trans children, they are doxxing people. They, you know, we’ve seen what’s happened in Florida. I would like to see that we are in a place where we can really teach history and the future, and understand that disability just is. I don’t want disability to be, “Oh, woe is me”, “Oh, you’re such a hero. I look at you and I think you’re such a strong Black woman,” because that’s horrible. I don’t want to be anybody’s superhero.
And disability shouldn’t be anybody’s superhero. But it shouldn’t be something to pity. I want people to understand that people with disabilities or disabled people, whatever way you want to call yourself, just is. The same way with people who are Autistic. Just like the strong Black woman trope is killing Black women, I want people who have disabilities to just be. I think it’s equally harmful to say that Autistic people are superheroes, just that is just as harmful as saying, Autistic people are, you know, like, can never accomplish anything, and that there’s only one way to be Autistic. I would like to see a place where every type of Autistic person is valued. No matter how they communicate, no matter how their body functions or doesn’t function, I want people to understand that it just is.
Like, the way that white is seen as a neutrality, I want — and like neurotypical is seen as neutral, I want Autistic as seen as neutral, I want disabled to be seen as neutral, I want Black, Asian, Pacific Islander, First Nation, non-English speaking to be seen as neutral. That’s what I want. And so, for that to happen, there needs to be full representation in classrooms. So, when staff is setting up their OT room, their speech room, their classrooms, whatever, their hallways, I want to see all of that representation.
So, one of the things that I do with the student teachers that I work with is I have like a guide — and also with the parents — it’s I have a guide, an environmental guide that I give them. It’s very, very, very, very, very deep, where they go through and they check for representation. So, it’s not based on months, it’s not “Oh, Black History Month,” or, “Oh, AAPI month,” or, you know, “Oh, Native American month,” or blah, blah, blah/ No, I want to see that there’s representation all the time. And they should see like, oh, look, so-and-so is dyslexic, so-and-so has anxiety, so-and-so is a wheelchair user, so-and-so uses a communication device. This person is Black, this person is LGBTQ, this person, and all the multitude of identities altogether. You know what I’m saying? And that should just be universal. Because that’s how it is. That is how the human population is. That’s what I’m gonna say.
Meg:
Thank you. I love that. That sounds like such a good resource. I want to ask you, what about providers who are supporting families? Do you have any specific advice for how they can support caregivers in a way that’s more affirming? I know early in the interview, you said you said listen to us, trust our experience, believe us.
Heather:
I also developed a worksheet for providers, too, because I train a lot of providers. I think, again, like really do a very affirming, in-depth interview. And it shouldn’t be that, “How was the birth?” or, “How was the adoption?” Like, no, you know what I mean? Like, they are sick of talking about what the birth was like. Like, no. Or if they adopted the baby, or fostered, or whatever. No. Like, what do you do for fun? What do you do to relax? How are your days off? And they can tell if you’re judging them. “Oh, you guys watch TV together?” What is wrong with watching TV together? Maybe that’s how they bond, over their favorite shows, you know? You know, people are dealing with a hard time right now. Money’s tight. I remember I was working with a teacher. And she had said, “It’s so sad that they don’t have their own bedroom.” And I just thought — it was a white suburban teacher. And I just thought you realize, like, the majority of the world does not live in a separate home?
And it was such a loaded — and she was like, “Well, I didn’t say it to the family.” I’m like, but your attitude would have been so apparent to the family. Like, so apparent. Because that judgement, even if you think you’re not saying it, even if you’re not saying it, comes across. So, just be very mindful of your unconscious, your subconscious bias that will come across. Parents are savvy. I remember another social worker I was working with. And they were like, “Well, I just don’t think that the mom can read, even in her native language.” And I was like, why are you making that judgement on? “Oh, I don’t know, just a feeling I get.” I’m just like, I just cannot — and whether or not the mother was or was not literate in their own language, you know, again, it’s a very white supremacist way of thinking that we put so much emphasis on the written word, when there’s so many ways to share, like, stories and speaking and, you know, like, oratories, and things like that. So, again, just, like, just that kind of bias. So, I would say that’s like the main thing. Like, go in with open, an open heart, kindness, and just be aware of your bias.
Meg:
Thank you, Heather. That’s such important advice. Is there anything before we wrap up from the conversation that you want to add or bring us back to?
Heather:
I would say that just keep continuing to learn. I understand that providers do have it really tough as well. So, just, you know, take time for yourself, continue to learn, use every resource you have at hand, connect with — if you can, and I’m sure you can — connect with culturally affirming therapists in whatever community you’re in as a visitor. And remember that you have two ears and one mouth. So, listen twice as much as you talk in those situations, as my great grandmother would say.
Meg:
Well, thanks to you and your great grandmother for that lovely advice. We will link to your resources in the show notes at learnplaythrive.com/podcast. But for folks who don’t make it all the way there, tell us right now where we can find you online, find your work, and learn more about it.
Heather:
Okay. So, probably the best place to find me would be my Instagram, because I am really working hard on trying to get a viable website. And I have been bad at that. So, my Instagram would be @Learning_Advocate. And it has a beautiful little Black girl silhouette with a tree kind of branding. Would that be how best you would describe that?
Meg:
Yes, that’s perfect.
Heather:
So, yeah, I would say my Instagram would be the best way to follow me. And barring all that, I guess then my LinkedIn, which would be Heather Clarke. And then, you would see my — I don’t know if you — can you see my —? You would see my picture, but then you can’t see my picture here. So, that probably wouldn’t help. [Laughs]
Meg:
Well, if people want help finding your LinkedIn, we’ll make sure to link to it. And then, your website is learning-advocate.com.
Heather:
Right, exactly. Yeah. But the email on there is not correct. So, I have to update that email. But yeah, it was such an honor to be on here with you, Meg, and I hope your listeners got something out of it.
Meg:
I’m sure they will. Thank you so much for your time today, Heather, and for all of your work.
[Ending music]
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