Meg:
Wow, y'all, I cannot believe that we haven't had this conversation before today about how to support twice-exceptional kids. Today's episode with school psychologist and parent coach, Dr. Danika Maddocks, covers the way 2E kids are struggling that are so often missed, and how we can show up for them and support them. We talk about gifted kids often not being identified as Autistic or ADHD.

 We talk about shame, perfectionism, self-advocacy, like the really nitty-gritty of self-advocacy, why it's so hard, and where we as providers are so often missing opportunities, and so much more. And I just want to name that we don't have the perfect language to talk about twice-exceptional kids yet. The word 'exceptional' here is used synonymously with divergent, meaning outside of the hypothetical normal that society is set up for.

And twice-exceptional kids diverge in two ways; one being that they're intellectually very bright, and the other usually being that they're neurodivergent in another way. For example, they're Autistic or ADHD, dyslexic, or similar. And I just want to be really clear here that when we talk about kids who are gifted or intellectually very bright, we aren't framing this exceptionality as better or even more desirable in any way.

We're centering, as always, the belief that everyone is inherently worthy, and that a person's intellectual or physical capacity or limitations don't ever change that. But we're also acknowledging that twice-exceptional kids, often called 2E kids, do have a unique presentation and often a unique set of challenges and needs. So, I believe this conversation is really important to ensure that we can show up and support all of our neurodivergent clients. Here's the conversation with Dr. Danika Maddocks. 

Hi, Danika. Welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Danika:
Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to sit down and talk to you.

Meg:
And this is a conversation we haven't specifically had on the podcast before, but I do get asked for it a lot. I get asked a lot of questions about supporting 2E kids. So, I want to start a little bit with your personal story. How did you come to do the work that you're doing? 

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, so I started out kind of from just like a gifted-specific perspective, because when I was younger, I was identified as gifted when I was seven. And that led my parents to seek out me skipping a grade. And so, that part of my identity, like the idea of being gifted, became an important part of my identity, I think, and kind of helped me understand the world.

And then, also, I think my mom really emphasized that idea as a way, kind of a framework for helping me understand the ways that I felt different from peers growing up. You know that, well, it makes sense, because your brain is different, you learn differently, you're gifted. And that that label was just a, you know, used a lot in our household as a way of understanding our experiences.

But then, I think as I got older — so I was, even as a kid, I was very interested in other kids and children, and very interested in how different kids respond to the same environment. So, I was the type of almost like a stereotype of a gifted kid who went to school, liked school, liked following the rules, liked trying to do my best. You know, I was very people pleasing and compliant. 

But then, I had a brother who hated school and who really didn't like being there, but who I also felt very close to. So, I was like, we're very close, but wow, we're also really different in this environment. And I found that really fascinating. And then, as I grew up and started having jobs, I was always drawn to jobs with kids. And I was always drawn to the kids who are having a hard time in whatever that environment was, whether it was like summer camp or elementary school. 

And then, I was a teacher for a while as a classroom teacher. And then, I realized I was more interested in kind of the psychological aspects of kids' experiences. So, I started a school psychology PhD program and we had a class on educational disabilities in the schools where we each, you know, kind of went deep, did a deep dive on a specific disability. But one of the options was twice exceptionality. And so, I was like, oh, that's a perfect fit for me, let me learn about what that is! And that's when I became really fascinated by twice exceptionality. 

And I realized that a lot of the kids that I had always been drawn to who were very bright but really having a hard time at school or, you know, were probably twice exceptional. And I did research on how often twice exceptionality is missed and kind of models for identifying twice exceptionality better. And then, yeah, I studied that for like 10-years and specialized in that as a therapist and as an assessor for a while.

And it never occurred to me I could be twice exceptional until I was reading the book 'Unmasking Autism' by Dr. Devon Price to help me understand some of my clients better and I had an 'Aha!' moment that helped me just, you know, reanalyze my entire life and realize I was Autistic. And so, it's really interesting looking back on the way my mom used giftedness kind of as a helpful neurodivergent concept to understand, like, yeah, your brain is different, your experience is different. She used to talk about how sensitive I was.

And I think, you know, just we had no idea I was also Autistic. But a lot of those experiences that were attributed to giftedness were also related to being Autistic at the time. But so, it's like my longtime interest in twice exceptionality has also become this personal, you know, I've been able to understand it through lived experience, too, as I re-understand my own experience.

Meg:
How interesting. Thank you for sharing. For folks who missed it, Dr. Devon Price has been on the podcast twice. So, go back and listen to those episodes or just read his books. One part of your story that really struck me was how when your mom explained your giftedness to you in sort of a neutral way. It sounds like it spring boarded your curiosity about other people's brains and needs and what was hard for them. I hear parents say sometimes, "Well, I'm worried they'll use the diagnosis as an excuse," which is such an interesting fear, right? 

When we're sort of presenting, okay, you're Autistic or you're ADHD, here's some of the things that might make hard, here's some of the things that are kind of cool about that for you. And what we — what I see is kids use that information to develop self-compassion to identify what accommodations they need, but also, like you're describing, to approach others with the same open-mindedness and curiosity, not the, "Why are you not like me? There was one way to be and why are you not like me?"

Dr. Danika:
Why are you not like me? But we're all different. We all have our own ways. 

Meg:
Yeah, right. That's the lesson for everybody. That's so simple and so impactful. Can you help us situate the idea of, quote unquote, 'giftedness' inside the neurodiversity paradigm?  

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about that because I know in a lot of disability spaces or kind of neurodivergent spaces, there are people who really don't like the term 'giftedness', you know, and don't like it as a concept and don't think it should be a part of the conversation. And so, I have like a different perspective having come from that first almost, you know, like, that was my first interest. I really think of giftedness, I would say, within the neurodiversity paradigm in the sense of, you know, giftedness is a neurodivergent — it's like a neurological difference, right?

If the neurodiversity paradigm is about recognizing that human brains have a vast diversity, within them and that that is natural and healthy and an important part of human diversity, like, giftedness by definition is about like someone whose brain works differently than the norm, and that their cognition and the way their brain works and the way they learn and perceive things is just different than others.

And it is, I feel like it's unique in some ways in that there are places where a gifted neurotype is highly valued, right, in a way that there's not as many places where other types of neurodivergence are held up or there's not so much worry about, like, Autistic elitism. Although there can be, you know, but it's usually that story about kind of gifted elitism or the idea that giftedness is about being better than other people, you know, whereas I really see it as like being different. And yes, in some settings, it is a privilege, right? And it can be really helpful.

But in a lot of settings, it's also not. And a lot of times, I think most settings are not set up for, especially when we're talking about kids and teens, they're not set up for young people who are gifted and who think in such a different way. So, a lot of these kids go through life feeling really different than other people. Like, they can't connect with peers, their environment is not a good fit, they're not learning anything at school. There can just be a lot of stress because their neurotype doesn't fit a lot of places.

And some people really, I mean, they also, I think, experience shame and ostracization. And Nick Walker, like, I use Nick Walker's essay, 'Throw Away the Master's Tools' in a lot of my work with parents and other providers and things. Like, really comparing the neurodiversity paradigm to the pathology paradigm and this idea that like there is this unspoken assumption in our society that if your brain, you know, there's kind of one right, or normal, or best, or typical way to be, and for your brain to function. And that if you're different than that, there's kind of something wrong with you. 

So, even though some people may admire a child being really bright in some ways, those kids often get feedback, too, of like, "There's something kind of off about you," you know, or like, "I don't like the way that you're talking," or that you know that much or — so that I think that can come up, too, within that paradigm, if that makes sense.

Meg:
Yeah, I really like the idea of looking at giftedness as fundamentally neutral, because if being very intellectually bright is neutral, then so is having an intellectual disability. 

Dr. Danika:
Exactly. 

Meg:
That all of this is neutral.

Dr. Danika:
All the divergence is neutral. Yes. 

Meg:
Some things are going to be harder; some things are going to be easier. My kid can solve a Rubik's Cube in eight seconds.

Dr. Danika:
Oh, my gosh.

Meg:
I know.

Dr. Danika:
I could never solve a Rubik's Cube.

Meg:
But here, his brain moves so fast and the world doesn't move that fast. And that is painful for him a lot of times. Like, it's neutral in that it's neither good nor bad that he can memorize 60 algorithms and be able to solve the Rubik's Cube that quickly. It's neither good nor bad. It's fun for him. So, that's cool. That part's fun. And he's taught all of the rest of us, which is really fun. 

And there's things that are hard when your brain moves that fast. There's things that are easy. There's ways you get in trouble. There's ways you're unhappy. There's ways you're distressed. And I think it would be dehumanizing to say, like, "No, this is just good. This is just good," right. 

Dr. Danika:
Exactly. Yeah. And, "You're so lucky," or like, "You shouldn't brag about that," or like it's, yeah, it's just a good thing. Yeah. Right. Makes me think of the social model of disability when you were discussing that, too, where it's like all these differences in neurotypes. If you see them neutrally, where it really depends on the context, right, where it's like in the context of solving the Rubik's Cube, it's like, oh, this is a great gift for him.

And also that, too, you know, I'm very bright, but I cannot think in 3D space. That is not the area where I'm bright. So, I'm like, I can't do that. You know, we have different strengths. But in a classroom where something is moving very slowly, it's disabling probably to think that quickly and to be ready for the next thing, and it makes it hard to focus on this slow thing that's happening. So, it really depends on the social context, right, whether or not it's disabling or not.

Meg:
That's exactly right. So, one of the things in your story was that you weren't identified as Autistic until you self-identified as an adult. How does being gifted impact a person being identified as Autistic or ADHD? And the second part of this question, we know by now, but we're going to say it again: Why does it matter? Why is it important to be correctly identified?

Dr. Danika:
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. So, I think there's both research, and then also I've just seen this in my work with families, that being gifted makes it less likely that the other forms of neurodivergence will be identified. So, folks who are gifted are less likely to have their autism or ADHD or dyslexia accurately identified, or it may be identified much later.

So, I often work with families who they know their kid is very bright and they often need multiple assessments in order to learn about what actual other neurotypes are kind of at play for their kid. So, a lot of gifted kids will be identified as just anxious in the first assessment or like, "Well, yes, maybe ADHD," but often autism is missed or the ADHD may be missed as well.

And there's interesting research showing that gifted folks, part of the reason they get missed a lot is that not only do they look different in day-to-day life, you know, just the way that their disabilities or that their other forms of neurodivergence manifest can look different and it can look more subtle on the outside, but it's still a significant internal experience.

But then, also in standardized cognitive testing, they can often — they often don't meet criteria according to things that are considered the, quote unquote, 'gold standard'. So, a gifted Autistic person may not score in the autism range on the ADOS. I've almost never seen an assessment where a kid scored in the autism range on that assessment. But an assessor who's really knowledgeable about more subtle or less obvious presentations can talk with a family and understand, like, what are you seeing in daily life, and elicit examples of what it's like, and talk with a kid and understand their internal experience. 

But I think a lot of gifted kids, you know, not on purpose, but they just can — I think they often use their reasoning abilities to compensate for the things that are hard, or they may, I don't know if they get practice — like, I don't know exactly how to describe this, but a lot of gifted kids within the setting of that one-to-one assessment, it's kind of like, "Okay, I'm going to lock in, you know, I'm going to do this thing. Like, I'm going to figure out the expectations here and I'm going to meet them."

And so, they might, you know, a kid with ADHD could do pretty well on different tests of attention or okay, you know, even though it's really effortful because it's only for this 20-minutes or whatever it is. So, that can happen, too. But then, yes, your other question of like, why?

So, why is it important? Like, why is it good to know? I think as you've probably talked about this a lot on the podcast, but I think it's so important for dissolving shame and self-loathing. And a lot of twice exceptional folks are filled with, I think, shame and self-loathing and this sense of a weird experience of, like, these are the parts of me that are socially desirable, these bright, intelligent, quick thinking parts, parts that can perform and do well, you know, and be bright, pleasing.

And then, there's these other parts that I have to hide as much as I possibly can. And that they think are due to being lazy, or rude, or not thoughtful about others, or lacking empathy or, you know, all the labels that get used for Autistic and ADHD folks. I think a lot of the experiences are similar to non-gifted neurodivergent people where you just — you learn, you have the internal sense that there's something wrong with you, but you don't know what it is. And you can just attribute it to, like, "I guess I'm a bad person," or like, "I must have a personality flaw."

And then, sometimes there's that added dimension of, like, and everyone expects me to do really awesomely. Or a lot of 2E kids and teens will be like, "I don't actually think I'm smart because people keep telling me I'm smart, but clearly I'm not or I would be able to write this essay," or, "Clearly I'm not because I keep losing my friends." And so, there can almost be extra self-doubt because of the pressure to live up to the parts of them that seem so capable.

Meg:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Somebody on the podcast, I think it was Rachel Dorsey, talked about, you know, being called, quote unquote, 'high functioning' when her sensory sensitivities were deeply disabling, and how incongruent that is. It's like, okay, you're calling me high functioning because I have a lot of language, because I went to grad school, because I don't inconvenience you, I guess. But that doesn't always reflect, like you're saying, a person's internal experience.

I do increasingly see, at least in North Carolina, better diagnosticians. So, I'm hoping that I'm not just getting sort of niche in what I'm seeing and that that is a trend. But I have known a lot of people whose kids were twice exceptional or otherwise just really hard to identify, getting identified as Autistic. So, that has been making me feel more hopeful.

Dr. Danika:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and sometimes I'll work with parents who are like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad we found you. Like, seven years ago, you know, we worked with these people," and I'm like, seven years ago, I didn't know this either. Though, you know, where it's like, yeah, I'm not magical. I haven't always known this. It has been a process of learning and learning about these less obvious presentations, and learning from neurodivergent lived experience instead of just the stereotypes of like, "Here's what it looks like in behaviors." It's like it really is about a subjectively different mind and body, you know, and experience of the world. 

Meg:
Yes. I think there is a move towards more of that. I think that timeline even is probably relatable to a lot of folks listening that seven years ago, we were just starting to learn — a lot of us, there are folks who have been listening to Autistic adults and practicing in neurodiversity-affirming ways long before 2019, right. But a lot of us, it is in the last six or seven years. I want to move into some of the therapeutic approaches. Like you mentioned how our two clients are often internalizing shame, so what are some therapeutic approaches that really don't work for twice exceptional kids? And what are some things that you like to do instead in your practice?

Dr. Danika:
Yeah. So, one thing I think about a lot is just when I'm building rapport or getting to know a kid, not even working on feelings, but just, like, you know, interacting with them. I, when in my training, I was really taught to try to name feelings, you know, and reflect back what the kids are feeling. And in my experience, twice exceptional kids — not all of them, I'm sure — but hate when you name their feelings. It is not affirming. It's not helpful. It doesn't feel good. 

Meg:
It's often not correct, right? 

Dr. Danika:
And it's not correct, yes.

Meg:
Because the kids are really precise, your description is not going to be precisely what that person is experiencing. 

Dr. Danika:
Exactly. Yeah. And I think sometimes that's why it's upsetting, because it's often in some way, it's this adult acting as if they know you and can tell you what you're feeling. It can feel very condescending. I think, you know, I think a lot of bright kids are highly sensitive to being talked down to, or being treated like a little kid or like they're really young, you know, because they often understand things at a much higher level, which is true. And not that we need to expose them to things that aren't developmentally appropriate, but if we're talking about their experience, you know, they want you to talk to them more like an equal. 

And so, if you want to connect, though, I have found that talking about, if you have a sense of their perception of what's going on, talking about their thoughts and perceptions or about the situation can be really validating because then it's like, "Oh, you get it," you know. So, if a kid's trying to do something and it's not working very well, you know, with, I don't know, some materials or something like that, instead of saying like, "Oh, that's so frustrating," or it may be like, "Shut up," you know, like, "No, it's not. I'm not frustrated," you know, "I'm annoyed," or whatever it is.

It could be like, "Who designed it to work like that? Like, that is, oh, that is so confusing," or like, "That thing is so wonky. Like, it does that a lot," you know, or, "Oh, my gosh, that is," you know, or just trying to comment on, like, here's what I see is happening in this situation and more like their perception of it, if that makes sense. So, often trying to think, or if they're sharing something that you would imagine bothered them, instead of being like, "Oh, that's so bothersome," or, "Oh, you must have been sad," it's a little bit more like you would talk to a friend, and trying to show them that like you get where they're coming from, where you can follow their thought process. 

And in my work, I even, you know, I think this could be relevant, is like, I really try to take it one step further if I can. Because I think a lot of 2E kids, they are noticing things all day long and they're doing their best to not say anything that would bother anyone else or that would be considered rude. But they're so perceptive, so even being able to say the thing that I'm like, they've probably thought this, they just never felt like they were allowed to say it out loud. I might take it a step further to help validate that. 

So, one example that comes to mind is working with high schoolers or middle schoolers who are a little older, and they might mention that it's frustrating that things are going kind of slowly in class or that, like, "Okay, yes, I kind of got it. I'm ready to move on." I was like, "Yeah. And like part of you is probably frustrated that like you're learning more quickly than everyone else," you know, and they're like, "Well, I would never say I was smarter than everyone else."

I'm like, "I didn't even say that, you know. It's like, but if you're ready, you don't need more repetitions than other folks do. And you're just ready to go. And now, that is really annoying, you know." And so, being able to almost like frame their experience as neutral, right. I think a lot of kids learn, like, you're not supposed to brag or complain or talk about these things, but really giving them a way to discuss their neurodivergent experience in a neutral way, that it's valid, that that might, you know, be things they notice.

Meg:
Yeah. You're not supposed to brag. You're not supposed to complain. That's — shove it down, right? There's no space for you to complete the stress cycle on whatever this feeling or process is happening inside of you. And no one will help you. We're just going to criticize you if you try to get help and support with that; as opposed to like, "Oh, yeah, what's going on? Oh, yeah, that's real." Well, one thing that struck me was your authenticity, too. Because I imagined being the kid and having somebody saying, "Oh, you're frustrated." And I kind of wanted to punch them. 

Dr. Danika:
Like, therapist voice, right? It's like, please stop. 

Meg:
You're right. And then, you're like, "Oh, yeah, that thing barely works. That makes me mad, too." But it was real, too, right? I mean, I know you're playacting it. But when we are trying to connect with a kid who is very precise and is very perceptive, they're going to notice if we're faking our connection to them.

Dr. Danika:
Yes, very much so. They're very attuned to that. And that is a tricky thing about gifted 2E kids, you know, like, and PDA-ers especially, I'm thinking are just so hyper-attuned to, like, you're not — like, you're faking it. You're doing that in a manipulative way to try to make me connect with you versus just, yeah, trying to actually be real. So, if you as a therapist can connect with, like, "That thing really is a pain," or like, "I don't know, you know, like, yes, it's so hard," or whatever it is. Just trying to be authentic.

Meg:
Or even, "Oh, gosh, my brain doesn't move that fast. So, I've never noticed." 

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, true. It doesn't have to be — 

Meg:
"I'm just barely keeping up. Like, but it sounds like that's not what it's like for you. Can you tell me more about what it's like to be in your brain? Because I have never experienced that." Like, that's real, too.

Dr. Danika:
Yes. Yes. And that's better than pretending that you know, right, or that you — yes.

Meg:
A phrase that I like — I think this is from Dr. Becky Kennedy — for the really precise kids, is something about that. Because I have a kid, if I try to name what it was about something that they didn't like, I get it. It's not exactly right. So, this phrase has been helpful. "Something about that really didn't feel good." Like, yes, "Something about that is not working for you." Yeah.

Dr. Danika:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Oh, I like that. I hadn't thought about it in terms of like you're sidestepping their need for precision. Yeah. Yeah. Because then it's like — also it's clear, like, something you don't — as an adult, you don't even need to guess, but you can tell, like, okay, this is not working for you or something about this is upsetting or frustrating. Yeah. I love that.

Meg:
What else? What other strategies come to mind for you, or things that you don't do, or things that you try to incorporate?

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, I think one that can be — like, I'm curious to hear if you have thoughts on what might be hard about this strategy. Like, so I'm in private practice, so I have a lot of flexibility, right. And then, I know not all folks are and, you know, have a need to sort of show things for insurance. And but I think the strategy that can be really helpful is, you know, a lot of our therapeutic systems are structured around this idea of, like, we are improving your outcomes, you know. Like, that's kind of why we're here. But with a lot of 2E kids and maybe other kids, too, you know, if we become overly focused on improving something and achieving a goal, I think 2E kids in particular, they do spend most of their life and day stretching themselves to try to meet expectations and goals.

And so, it's really therapeutic to like not do that, actually. You know, if you're sensing pushback, or that therapy is a space, or interventions are a space to learn how to honor your capacity as much as they are to grow your skills. And I think that can be a huge mindset shift. And sometimes hard. Sometimes it takes working with parents to help them understand, you know. But if you have a kid who it's like you want to look — you know, maybe they need help learning to tie their shoes and you're working on that.

But if you're getting a lot of resistance to that, it's potentially even more therapeutic to be like, "Maybe this isn't what you want to work on right now," you know, or like, "I get the sense that like this isn't motivating," or, "Something about this isn't working for you. We can do something else." Or like we could have a different goal, or that a goal could even be the student's going to push back and tell me 'No'. Like, that's huge. Like a lot of 2E kids learn to say like, "No, actually, I would not like to do that," or, "I don't have the capacity for that right now." Or, you know, and it often starts as like 'No' or avoidance. But that is huge therapeutic growth for a lot of these kids and like a critical life skill.

Meg:
Absolutely. Yeah, I think a lot of folks have become very clever in how they're writing their goals to allow them to practice in affirming ways. Not misleading, but smart about it where, okay, this kid is in burnout. I'm going to write goals, I'm going to give myself a year to not do very much, right, because my real goal is getting this kid out of burnout.

That's something that Rachel Dorsey, Autistic SLP, really emphasizes when she teaches and trains about goal writing. But I also think we cannot use our practice settings as an excuse to do something that's harmful for our clients. "Well, I have to show progress and I have to track developmental progress, so it's out of my hands." Like, no, if we're causing harm, that is still on us. 

Dr. Danika:
It's not therapeutic. Yes, exactly.

Meg:
Yeah. And there are ways, there are so many ways to write affirming goals, right? The child will identify what feels authentically restful for them and engage in that, that they'll self-advocate when something feels too hard. There's so many frameworks now for writing affirming goals. And then, there's just the way we practice inside of the session. Like, what happens between us and that child in that session. I don't think, at least in any setting I've worked in, my notes and goals on a session-to-session basis aren't being scrutinized that deeply, that I can't actually just show up with a kid for wherever they're at.

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And maybe that's part of the reminder of like keeping in mind that that is so important. And, you know, for those kids to set those limits or to opt out of something, right, or to give feedback that it's not working for them. And I think the piece that can be related to twice exceptionality specifically that I just see show up with most adults — so I'm imagining it would happen in, you know, all kinds of intervention sessions, and it happens as a parent, is like there's something even below your level of consciousness about just talking with a kid who sounds 10 years older than they are. 

You know, it's so easy to forget how little they are, and how young they are, and how hard things are for them when you've got a kid who is making this, you know, really thoughtful, or funny, or clever, you know, having this interaction with you at a certain level, verbally, potentially, but they cannot write by hand. It's impossible, or it's totally overwhelming, or whatever, they have terrible sensory sensitivities, you know. And for 2E folks, I'll often talk about this idea that hard things are easy, and easy things are hard. And I imagine OTs and SLPs, that's what you see a lot, right, because you get the kids who are really struggling with just daily life stuff that is so hard.

But I think in most of their lives, these 2E kids, you know, they get weird mixed messages probably from adults. Because on the one hand, you know, they can do things that seem like they should be hard. Like, maybe they're six and they're doing fourth-grade math, you know, or maybe they just solve Rubik's Cubes in eight seconds for fun, you know, and everyone else is like, "Wow, that's so hard." And it's like, but it probably wasn't that hard for your kid. It's like, no, this is fun. This is how I would just do this for, you know, for enjoyment.

But then, things like bathing, going to the bathroom, eating, those daily tasks are way more overwhelming and hard to access. And I think sometimes people forget that like those are very different skills and abilities. And so, remembering just sometimes, I think, it takes a self-monitoring of the adult to remember like, "Oh, yeah, you're younger than — I feel like I'm forgetting how little you are." Forgetting how hard this is for you sometimes.

Meg:
Heather Clark, who's been on the podcast, teaches a lot about how this adult vocation bias is incredibly intensified for Black children as well. You see higher behavior expectations from providers and teachers, harsher punishments, are perceived as older than they actually are.

Dr. Danika:
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's so oppressive to have those. It's like robbing them of their childhood, and their need for respect, and just, like, gentleness and all that, right. So, yeah.

Meg:
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about perfectionism? I'm thinking about all the kids I've seen, you know, maybe just as an OT working on handwriting in the schools, who write something. It's not perfect. They erase it. They try again. And now frustration is overloaded and we're not writing anymore.

Dr. Danika:
Yes. Yeah. Perfectionism is interesting. I was called a perfectionist growing up. I don't love that word as a gifted Autistic person. It's not precise enough for me. You know, I was always like, I don't want it to be perfect. I know things can't be perfect. I just want it to be the best that it can possibly be. Or I want to see it through to completion or, you know, whatever it is. So, I do think it's helpful when you have a kid who seems perfectionistic to get a little, like, to get curious about, like, what is it that's actually happening for them there? Because for a lot of 2E kids, you know, it's frustrating when things go not according to plan, or they don't look the way they're supposed to or that they want them to. 

And there can be that overwhelm, you know, and like, "Yeah, like, I give up." Some kids really do want it to be perfect or have this idea that it could be perfect and that they're supposed to get it perfect. Whereas I'm trying to think like other — I don't know. There's just so many different aspects of it, you know. So, I'm thinking for a kid, right, who's doing the erasing, that almost makes me wonder, is that a kid — like, how much of that is anxiety, pure anxiety, and needing to learn to tolerate it being not quite right, right?

So, I don't know. I think, when I talk with parents about managing perfectionism and stuff at home, I really try to think in terms of resilience. Like, how do we encourage resilience over time? And I think a lot of adults, when we see a kid struggling with hating mistakes, not being able to tolerate something being not quite right, or some kids will persist past the point of like they're really dysregulated, but they want to keep going, they want to get it complete. I think like a lot of adults have the urge to be like, "It's okay to make mistakes. Like, you don't have to hate — it doesn't need to look perfect. It's fine," you know, and really want to let the kid know they don't have to worry about that. 

But I've never — I'm never going to be okay making a mistake physiologically. Cognitively, I know it's okay to make a mistake, but the way my brain is wired, I think, a lot of gifted Autistic ADHD folks are like, mistakes are distressing. They are physiologically distressing. It's like an emotional response of like, "Ah, I don't like this. This is wrong on so many levels. It feels bad in my body." So, if we focus too much on being like, "Mistakes are your friend, you don't have to worry about them, that's how everyone learns," it's just like totally missing the mark.

And so, I really encourage parents — at least if you're doing tasks with kids, I guess you could try this in sessions, too — to just validate that mistakes suck. Like, you know, similar to like, "That thing doesn't work," like, "Oh, that was so frustrating. It didn't look the way you wanted," you know, like, "Oh, man. And now you're exhausted and you're probably just done writing by now. I get it," you know, and just trying to validate that it's not fun to make mistakes for most of us, and that's okay.

And it's okay to want it to be perfect, actually, you know. Like, it's helpful eventually. It's helpful for kids to know, like, you don't have to be perfect. All those things are true. But I think that's what they usually hear. And then, there can be this shame of, like, why am I getting so upset about this mistake? And they're not able to move through the upset about it and reapproach it in their own way. 

So, I also talk with parents about really thinking for a long time. Like, if we're looking for our kids to be resilient in the moment, that's going to be very hard for most of our neurodivergent kids. But a lot of neurodivergent kids are extremely resilient in the long-term. Like, writing is so hard for them and they eventually make it work. So, it may be like, "Okay, that's enough writing for today. Let's come back after we do this other regulating activity," you know, and then come. And some kids are able to return to it, you know, like, once they've gone through that big feeling. Does that make sense?

Meg:
Yeah. Yeah. I think one tool that we always have at our disposal, too, is what we model. I watched my kid lose something like 10-rounds in a row of a game recently. And that's too hard, right.

Dr. Danika:
That's really hard.

Meg:
Yeah, you can tolerate by a certain age, maybe. But that was like too much. And they were joking, and laughing, and like making it really fun and funny. And I said, "How did you do that?" And they went, "That's your superpower, Mommy. That's what you always do when you lose."

And I was like, oh, gosh, in this moment, everything is working. But I had, you know, spent years modelling playfulness around losing. Like, "Well, I'm I might be losing badly, but look at you crushing it over there," right? Or like, "Could this go any worse?" I mean, that's tons and tons and tons of modelling for one moment of that kid showing that skill. But they're still a kid. They have a long, long — we're all still learning. So, I think that a lot of providers accidentally model being really hard on ourselves when we make mistakes. "Oh, I'm so sorry. I shouldn't have. I should have had this ready before I got here. And now you're having to wait for me."

Dr. Danika:
Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Meg:
Which is modelling self-shaming for the kids. 

Dr. Danika:
Or that we need to be perfect, right? Like, that we should have done this.

Meg:
Or that something scary will happen. I'm scared of your dysregulation because I messed up, right. Like, there's all this fear in the room. And really, that's an opportunity to say, to model self-compassion. "Listen, I got here late and I did not bring your favorite pencil. And I told you last session I would bring your favorite pencil, and I messed both of those things up. Ah, I'm really sorry. I'm going to write it on my hand so I don't forget tomorrow." But we're modelling that the kid can learn, like, that's one way to do mistakes.

Dr. Danika:
To do mistakes. Exactly. Yes. And to not be overwhelmed by them or stressed by them. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And even sometimes, right, and it's like, you don't want to, like, disappoint a child on purpose, right, but that'll happen. Sometimes there are — well, and that is dependent on the kid. You might choose to do that, I guess, at some point. But it's like there's so many opportunities. I feel like we all are going to make mistakes, you know, and we're all going to not know things and mess things up.

Meg:
I wouldn't fabricate those.

Dr. Danika:
Yeah. But welcoming those opportunities, it's just like this is a great chance. And I feel like that is, in some ways, that is the crux of the neurodivergent paradigm, you know, the neurodiversity paradigm, like, in real life and in relationships of humans operate in all kinds of ways. Humans are not automatons that remember everything all the time. And even though the paradigm says we are supposed to be responsible, and be on time, and remember things, you know, there's this kind of like — it's kind of like a white supremacist, capitalist, you need to be perfect all the time. It's like that's not how humans actually operate. All humans, right.

And so, being able to model like, "Hey, I'm a human and I did some things and it didn't work," or, "I don't understand this," or, "I'm sorry, I didn't hear you." It's like a way to model it's fine to be all these ways. So, I think that's hugely powerful.

Meg:
Are you saying that we need to dismantle colonial ways of thinking and existing in the world inside of our minds and bodies in order to be the best providers we can be for our clients?

Dr. Danika:
Oh, my gosh. You said that so well. Thank you. Yes. Yes. And that our little — that our sessions are many worlds that we get to be, you know, that we kind of get to set the ground rules for and then we get to create the culture in them. So, it's like a lovely little world that doesn't have to be that way, that we can dismantle in our offices. So, I love this.

Meg:
Which models for parents, for teachers, for kids, for anyone around us. Especially when we can explain why. You briefly touched on self-advocacy earlier, but I want to circle back to that. What does self-advocacy look like for 2E kids?

Dr. Danika:
Yes, it can look all kinds of ways. I think 2E kids are just really set up to potentially be amazing self-advocates. Like, their giftedness means that they are amazing at analyzing situations and figuring out what is not working and what would work better for them. And then, as there are other exceptionalities, neurodivergence, things aren't going to go very well for them, but they often know what would work better. 

However, I would say a lot of 2E folks, when they first start self-advocating, it's not accepted by adults because it's often, you know, it doesn't come across as like calm and articulate. It's like yelling, like, "Shut up," you know, or like, "No, I don't want to." And I don't know, in session, it can just be dysregulation. It might not be verbal. It might be avoiding. It might be, it could even be fawning, pleasing, doing all the things you ask or getting along, you know. So, that's less obvious, I think. 

But anyway, I think, really, if we can look for those cues that a kid, if something isn't working for a kid or that they're giving us feedback, I think it's so powerful to be able to help them recognize that that's what they're doing and make it a more formal process over time, where it's like you're kind of shaping it. So, I will even, like with my own kid, you know, when he was much younger and would have like big meltdowns or yelling, it's like I practiced, I kind of trained myself to like, whew, you know, like take a breath and to be like, "Thank you so much. Clearly this is something about this isn't working for you." It's such a useful phrase. Where it's like, "Yeah, thank you for letting me know that does not feel good," or like, "Okay, thank you. I can see that we need to change something here." 

And really helping translate — I remember at one point even saying to my kid, I was like, "You know what? I believe you and I see how upset you are. You don't have to hit me to make me know how upset you are. Like, I can see you're communicating it really clearly." And I was like, I don't know if this is going to work, but it did. And he stopped getting physically aggressive when he was overwhelmed. And I realized it's like, oh, in part, that was him trying to communicate things are not okay. And over time, we've been able to move it into much more verbal self-advocacy territory of like, "I need this," or, "I don't like that," or, "I would much rather have this," or, "Here's what would make it better." 

And so, I think that's why if a kid gets upset and erases everything or gets overwhelmed, it's like these are really helpful moments, actually, to be able to advocate like, "Oh, maybe now's a good time to take a break," or, "Maybe this is feeling like too much. I see that maybe you're ready for something else," you know, and just shaping and modelling what that self-advocacy could look like. And then, I think kids pick that up over time.

Meg:
I love this phrase. "I see how hard this is for you, and I believe you that it's that hard." That's really powerful. My husband actually says this to me when I'm having a hard time. He'll say, "I see how hard this is for you. And I always believe you." And I'm just like, well, then anything you thought you were about to act out or blame somebody, you know, you're like, well, I guess I don't have to do any of that.

Dr. Danika:
I guess I've been diffused. 

Meg:
It's amazing. Yeah. I've just said over and over in trainings lately that when we're turning to children with gentle curiosity, they learn to turn towards themselves with that same gentle curiosity. And that's what they need to be able to self-advocate.

Dr. Danika:
Absolutely. 

Meg:
Curiosity; not self-shaming, not blaming, not dismissing. But like, "Oh, what was so hard about that? What would have helped? What could I use?" 

Dr. Danika:
Yes, exactly. 

Meg:
But we have to do it with them before they can do it for themselves. 

Dr. Danika:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's how all learning happens, right? It's kind of, yeah, it has to be experienced for kids with someone else and then you internalize it. And so, yeah.

Meg:
But everyone's missing this for self-advocacy. It's like, "Oh, now that you're a young adult, please begin self-advocating."

Dr. Danika:
I know, I know. Well, and so often, I think when people get to that age, a lot of these kids have been trying to advocate their entire life, you know, or their whole school career. They have been giving clear feedback that things are not working for them. And some have even asked for what they need. But it's things that teachers are kind of like, "Oh, you can't have that. You can't have more time. You can't take a break. You can't skip this assignment. What do you mean?" You know, there's just not enough flexibility to the kid's interest. So, it is ridiculous to be like, "And now you need to be doing this on your own." And they're like, "I've been trying!" Yeah.

Meg:
Lei Wiley-Mydske in one of our earlier podcast episodes said, "Self-advocacy begins when we listen to a child when they say 'No'" And sometimes the answer is, okay, it can't be no. Like, you actually do have to buckle your seat. But we do have to go now. We have to transition away from recess, whatever. But we can still hear that 'No'. Like, "You really, really super do not want to go. I believe you. This is hard." And especially for our 2E kids, the actual reason, like, not a made-up reason. Like, the actual reason. "I am so sorry. I have a headache and I can't stay here any longer. I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to drive home. So, like I'm sorry."

Dr. Danika:
They're like, "Oh, that's legit, Mom." 

Meg:
Yeah. I mean, really, like, it's amazing. I mean, one of my own kids from like real early, the teacher reason made him really mad. But the actual reason, he was like, all right, fine. And the real reason was because if we don't go now, the whole schedule is going to get messed up and that makes my job hard. Like, that's strengths-based because he cares about you and he doesn't want your job to be hard. 

I wanted to say one more thing about your self-advocacy piece. You said, "Or if they're in fawn, but that's hard." It is harder to recognize when a kid is in fawn. And I think it would be incredibly helpful if we became — we, as providers — became more attuned to that because that's a profound stress response, one of the hardest to unlearn and easy to miss because people like a kid in fawn.

Dr. Danika:
It's so nice. Yeah, exactly

Meg:
I don't like a kid in fawn because I can't feel them. I can't find them. It feels really off to me. And, you know, when I see a kid in fawn, if I know them well enough, you know, I'm like, you can be here. You can relax. I don't need you to be — I don't need you to say 'Yes'. Like, I just want you here with me.

I've said this enough that my youngest kid said recently — I think I fussed at her for something. I was getting stressed. And then, a few minutes later, she said, "I feel like I shouldn't use my voice very loud right now. Like, when I try to talk, my body tells me I have to be really quiet."

Dr. Danika:
Oh, wow.

Meg:
And we were able to talk about like, is that freeze? Don't be seen. Don't be heard. Or is that fawn? Be good, right. And figure out, like, you're in freeze or fawn, and what do we need to do to get back to safety? So, helping kids identify their stress responses is very powerful, including fawn.

Dr. Danika:
Including fawn, yes. Instead of just being happy that they're going along with you, right. Yeah. But having that language sounds so helpful, too, because otherwise it's very hard to name because it's on the surface. It's often very bright, you know, quote unquote, like 'looks good' or like it gets positive feedback from other adults. So, I think naming it as that stress response and having that curiosity about it sounds really helpful.

Meg:
Yeah. Yeah. Danika, is there anything that we missed or that you want to bring us back to?

Dr. Danika:
You know, we haven't talked about just advocating with other systems, and I do find that in my work, supporting 2E kids almost always — there's like something that could, you know, like, school is often a source of stress if they're in school. And parents are often stressed because they're not being well-supported or resourced. So, I do think in the roles kind of like the provider, if there's any kind of collaboration with school or support of the parents, or if there's things that the parents could just use more knowledge about or more resources about, that can be so powerful. Because I think a lot of these families are in this kind of weird limbo space sometimes of like, well, my kid is very capable, but we're also really struggling.

And they, you know, the school said they don't qualify for services because they're doing okay, but they're clearly not doing okay. You know, they're doing okay academically, but we're struggling so much emotionally and socially. And so, I think anything that can be done around helping the family just improve those systems, or advocate in those systems, or just the encouragement that that type of thing is valid to pursue, or connection with resources to learn about giftedness or twice exceptionality if they're not aware of those frameworks, and if they would find them helpful. I think all of that can be kind of like a bigger, a broader systemic lens to just touch on with families, at least.

Meg:
Thank you so much. That is a really important point. Danika, where can people find you and your work online?

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, so my website is giftedlearninglab.com. I do have a free five-day email mini course about how to reduce power struggles with kind of neurodivergent-affirming strengths-based approaches. So, folks will see that. There's like a pop up as well as a page for it. It's at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And then, I have a free weekly email that I send out as well, and a coaching program for parents if they want more support. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook.

Meg:
Awesome. I'll link to everything in the show notes at learnplaythrive.com/podcast. Thank you so much for the work you're doing and for your time today.

Dr. Danika:
Yeah, thanks for having me. So glad to be here.

[Ending note]
Thanks for listening to the Born to Be Free podcast from Learn Play Thrive Continuing Education. If you enjoyed the episode, please rate our show on your podcast player and share the episode on social media. For more in-depth episodes, visit patreon.com/learnplaythrive.